[NetBehaviour] erhu & Comments on Alan Sondheim's postings on this list...

marc marc.garrett at furtherfield.org
Mon Jan 8 13:30:59 CET 2007 

Hi Geert,

 >Where I'm coming from? If you mean am I a supporter of Alans work?   
Absolutely!

I do not think that I am arguing 'for or against' Alan's work really, 
because I feel that (of course) people should mae their own minds up 
what how perceive his work. I was more asking about your own take on his 
work, especially the postings just because I was interested...

 >The deeper insight will have to wait, I'm afraid.

Fair enuff :-)

marc

>
> On 8/01/2007, at 2:59 AM, marc wrote:
>
>> Hi Geert,
>>
>> I made an effort to at least explore in my own way Alan's work, but  
>> I have not seen any critical conceptions from your own perspective  
>> yet, other than 'oh, I do not understand it...'
>>
>> There is just as much non-understanding with your text, as you  
>> propose there is in Alan's.
>>
>> So where are you really coming from and are you going to offer some  
>> deeper insight regarding your own ideas, either on his work or what  
>> you think may work better in some way?
>
>
>
> Where I'm coming from? If you mean am I a supporter of Alans work?   
> Absolutely! The deeper insight will have to wait, I'm afraid.
>
> Geert
>
>
>
>>
>> marc
>>
>>> Thanks for this. We still have absolutely no idea what these  
>>> concepts  (the avatar, our digitalization) will mean for us.
>>>
>>> Geert
>>>
>>> On 8/01/2007, at 12:49 AM, Michael Szpakowski wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>> not particularly an answer to you Geert, you just
>>>> happened to post the latest in this thread, but a very
>>>> concrete response to all those who've expressed
>>>> puzzlement about Alan Sondheim's work.
>>>> Check out the video we posted on dvblog yesterday:
>>>>
>>>> http://dvblog.org/?p=53
>>>>
>>>> it's from a series of dance/movement videos Alan's
>>>> been making with Foofwa d'Imobilite & Maud Liardon.
>>>> I think to watch it unmoved one would have to have a
>>>> heart of stone :)   - surely there's no *theory*
>>>> required, no *difficulty* to be overcome to be touched
>>>> in some way by this.
>>>>
>>>> If this series of videos were *all* he'd ever made it
>>>> would establish him as a serious force but he has made
>>>> an astonishing *amount* & *variety* of work over a
>>>> long period of time.
>>>> I certainly don't like *everything* he makes ( even
>>>> assuming that the mark of what determines whether an
>>>> artist is worthwhile is whether one simply "likes"
>>>> what they do) & I'm absolutely sure that I have
>>>> certain big philosophical disagreements with him, but
>>>> I'm constantly astonished by his sheer range, not just
>>>> in terms of video work but the work he does with
>>>> language. I also like, in the era of the one liner as
>>>> art, very much the way this work refuses glibness or
>>>> cosying up to the watcher/reader. I think if we are
>>>> *serious* as critics or fellow artists, or both, we
>>>> have a certain responsibility to attempt some
>>>> *serious* engagement with work before we even
>>>> *consider* dismissing it, though my bet is *this* work
>>>> will be even more alive & kicking just as hard in a
>>>> century...
>>>> best
>>>> michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- Geert Dekkers <geert at nznl.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps. But as you might know, I included Alan in
>>>>> "Digital Bodies",
>>>>> a show I did with Antoinette Reuten in her gallery
>>>>> in Amsterdam. I
>>>>> had some trouble convincing her Alan was really
>>>>> "doing art" (I spend
>>>>> most of my days wondering what that means). So I do
>>>>> see a consumerist
>>>>> stance as a real obstacle to the appreciation of
>>>>> art. People tend to
>>>>> want a finished product, and Alan jsut isn't giving
>>>>> this kind of thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Geert
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7-jan-2007, at 19:52, marc wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Geert,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Really?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that perhaps there those who are more
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> interested in
>>>>>
>>>>>> collecting specific information & promoting their
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> projects, rather
>>>>>
>>>>>> the other noise that happens on lists. I think
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> that our list is
>>>>>
>>>>>> actually pretty mellow really...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Alan might make art, but we will never know
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember Heath Bunting stuck some text on a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> billboard about 15
>>>>>
>>>>>> yearsa go now saying 'most art means nothing to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> most people'...
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> marc
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Really?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, I was just reconsidering a line
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Alan might make art, but we will never know
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> at first I wrote
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Alan might NOT make art, but we will never know
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that's better
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Geert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/01/2007, at 6:35 PM, marc wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Geert,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Incidentally, I'm quite amazed that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> leon at c6.org
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:leon at c6.org>'s little bout of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> indigestion lead to a
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thread  this size)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, he must of been affected in some way
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> because he has
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> unsubscribed now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> marc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would like to add this:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Alan might make art, but we will never know
>>>>>>>>> - Alans work isn't a series of  "works"
>>>>>>>>> - Alan makes raw materials, not consumer items
>>>>>>>>> - We are smart enough to put it all together
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> again
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Incidentally, I'm quite amazed that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> leon at c6.org
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:leon at c6.org>'s little bout of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> indigestion lead to a
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> thread  this size)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Geert Dekkers---------------------------
>>>>>>>>> http://nznl.com | http://nznl.org |
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://nznl.net
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 7/01/2007, at 4:12 PM, marc wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Comments on Alan Sondheim's postings on this
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> list...
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I perceive Alan's post-works, as an going work
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> in 'process',
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> expounding the very nature of process itself,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> as a continualy
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> networked , creative act of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> mutated-consciousness, in a
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> literal  form. It involves the material itself
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> to be
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> distributed, when  visiting various lists as
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> part of a
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> performative operation, this  is part of its
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> context. Viewing
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the function and behaviour of how  the work is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> solicited can
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> also bring about a closer understanding  of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> what the work is
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> doing, in essence, as we receive it daily.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Its value as art, or even an act of creativity
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> rests in
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> appreciating that some of the work is like
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> semiotic code,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> using  the language of tools, sofware and the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> computer, to
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> build the  content, mixed with more
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> traditional wordings
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> alongside other  peices of texts. His work is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> noise, not non-
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> thinking noise but a  noise that expounds, or
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> translates the
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> result of Alan's poetic  imagination, melding
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> with code. It is
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> not trying to communicate  as a linear message
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> would do, or as
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> a singular art object like an  image. It is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> exploiting the
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> channels of communication, leaking  into these
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> platforms like a
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> virus would, yet directed by his
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> consciousness.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, Alan's behaviour in releasing his material
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> around the
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Internet, could be considered as acting much
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> like a parasite.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I  do not mean this in a negative way, but
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> more that 'this is
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> what  is done', it becomes, or is part of the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> meaning of the
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> work  itself - the function is component of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> its larger meaning,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> if  there is such a thing as meaning. The
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> intention of his
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> actions,  also becomes part of the work which
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> we may not be so
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> clear about  which is probably what causes the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> most troubles,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> when people ask  questions - like why is there
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> so much of it?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Alan and the Internet cannot be split. His
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> work spans its
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> history, and as much as it has dominated his
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> psyche, he has
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> also  dominated the Internet's psyche; and
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> perhaps also
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> infiltrated our  own minds just by being here
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> or there, as we
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> tour many of the  lists ourselves. We are part
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> of the work,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> whether we be passively  or engaged with it,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> it is now part of
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> our online presence with  us, like a virus,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> hacking into the
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> listserv, structures and sub- structures, and
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> into our own
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> contexts. We become segments of the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> structures that he sets
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> his work up to infiltrate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What makes it a little more confusing is that
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> we know that
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Alan  harbours real emotions, ideas and also
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> gets involved in
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> discourse  regarding various subject matters
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> on lists as well
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> as  distributing his work on them at the same
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> time. But, he
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> speaks  differently from his
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> posts/conversations because that
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> is  dialogue, and this should be acknowledged.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> I do not feel
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> that  Alan is trying to impose any type of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> mesaage to dominate
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> us, or  even try and impose a claiming of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> territory. Much of
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> his work  just is, it is being, it is there
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> and bleeds into
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> its  surroundings like steam into a room.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am definately not sure if Alan would agree
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> with any of this,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> but if he is not going to respond and discuss
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> about his work,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> it  is not a problem. Because going through
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> the motions of
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> exploring  these texts and their purposes etc,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> has been
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> rewarding itself and  opened different
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> possibilities, and
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> nuances, and also helps one  to understand or
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> at least
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> appreciate (a little) work by other  artists
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> such as MEZ and
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> FLorian Cramer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> marc :-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> (c)human interaction in a broad sense of any
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> cultural
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> appropriation and use: in 1968, in his book
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> Algol, Noël Arnaud
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> made a first attempt at using a programming
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> language as
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> material  for poetic compositions. Later on,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> the hacker slang
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> “leet”, Alan  Sondheim’s “Codework” and Marie
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> Anne Breeze’s
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> “Mezangelle” all  apply code as a material
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> that can be
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> recomposed to create a  particular form of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> written language
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> that is recognised as  “computer talk”,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> imitating command lines
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> but readable as some  sort of English. In the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> same way as James
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Joyce experienced with  language in
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> “Finnegan’s Wake”, these
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> new forms of writing create  their own
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> semantics and a meta-
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> language with social and cultural
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> implications. On the other
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> hand, the work of George Pérec, Jodi,  the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> I/O/D group,
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Netochka Nezvanova or Adrian Ward’s Auto-
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> Illustrator introduce
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> what Cramer defines as “software dystopia”,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> the reflection on
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> software not as a subservient, domesticated
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> assistant but as a
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> fearful, obscure and incomprehensible golem
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> that may revolt
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> against us at any time or take its own
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> decisions.  Under this
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> light, software becomes much more than just a
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> tool, it  is part
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> of a broader concept of culture.
>>>>>>>>>> Pau Waelder - Words Made Flesh (2005) -
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> Florian Cramer. http://
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> www.furtherfield.org/displayreview.php?
>>>>>>>>>> From=Index&review_id=167
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.furtherfield.org/
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> displayreview.php? From=Index&review_id=167>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- ---
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> met vriendelijk groet,
>>>>>
>>>>> Geert Dekkers
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>> -- --
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------
>>>>> Geert Dekkers Web Studio | 2e Keucheniusstraat 8HS
>>>>> 1051VR Amsterdam |
>>>>> +31(0)627224301 | http://nznl.net
>>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>> -- --
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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