[NetBehaviour] NetBehaviour Digest, Vol 150, Issue 4

Bootymachine bootymachine at bootymachine.net
Sun Apr 6 21:33:39 CEST 2008

Thanks for the answer, very interesting indeed. I do agree at most  
times and definitely shall think a bit more about your words. I find  
it to be very constructive sharing thoughts on net art in an open  
space like this one, very constructive and motivating.

Bootymachine www.bootymachine.net
experimental groove experiment
bootymachine at bootymachine.net

On 3 avr. 08, at 13:00, netbehaviour-request at netbehaviour.org wrote:

> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:55:48 +0000
> From: "Pall Thayer" <pallthay at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] Netart 2.0 is not net.art
> To: "NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity"
> 	<netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<e3a34e0e0804020455m52106130hf0cf9de1695c3ca5 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Hi Z,
> Thanks for the interesting comments. I'd like to  point out again  
> that a
> manifesto is not by any means a formal, logical philosphical  
> argument. It is
> a personal declaration of opinions and/or intentions. By saying this  
> I'm not
> trying to stave off any discourse but merely pointing out that this  
> is not
> intended to describe or define a collective body of work other than  
> my own.
> However I do welcome any and all comments and am truly interested in  
> hearing
> how these ideas fit into (or don't fit into) other artists' practice.
> Netart 2.0 is not net.art
>> Do you mean net art? web art? internet art? When I read the following
>> text, I get the feeling you understand the creative net started  
>> with the
>> web. There have been works done before (e.g. using news groups and
>> FirstClass communities), and these well before 1991 and I feel the
>> distinction is necessary for the coherence of a manifesto that  
>> would speak
>> to novice but also old-timers. The web's just the tip of the  
>> history of
>> online art and I am not sure I understand well what you are  
>> focusing on.
>> When you speak about casual internet users, I believe you mean web,  
>> and
>> mass-media-like consumers. But then again you state in a further  
>> point that:
>> 'Netart 2.0 is not dependent upon The World Wide Web'. I'm a bit  
>> stuck there
>> in the comprehension of your text.
> Here I am referring to net.art (net-dot-art) as the work of a very  
> specific
> group of artists in the early to mid 90's that coined the term as  
> their own.
> I don't recall who they all were but the ones I remember were Vuc  
> Cosic, Lev
> Manovich (I think), Olia Lialina and Alexei Shulgin. It's not a  
> negative
> comment on their work but merely a reminder that Internet based art  
> hasn't
> stayed grounded within the early work of these individuals. It has
> progressed to a degree that warrants re-consideration on its own  
> merits. I'm
> not by any means denying the significance of this earlier work, just
> pointing out that Internet-based art has evolved.
>> Netart 2.0 is dynamic
>> By that I understand you mean the content is dynamically generated
>> acording to both the human and the machine context, giving life to a
>> creative avatar. Again, it seems essential to me that if you're  
>> speaking of
>> the web, since the early years net art was dynamic. In fact it was  
>> already
>> before the web, thought there weren't as many viewers-consumers to  
>> check it
>> out and the communities where more focused and less generalist. It  
>> is true
>> the trend is towards more than an simple html web page collection  
>> including
>> hyperlinks, but this doesn't seem enough to define a second  
>> generation of
>> net art, or at least not like that.
> I'm not limiting my statements to the Web. The Internet is much more  
> than
> the web. Try this for instance; If you're using Mac OS X, open the  
> terminal
> application, type: telnet anmo.iu.liss.org 4000 then hit return.  
> After a
> short while the window will begin displaying a bunch of nonsense. What
> you're seeing is live seismic data (in binary form) being  
> transmitted over
> the Internet. This transmission has nothing to do with the web. Here's
> another thing to try that will make a bit more sense. In a terminal  
> window
> type: telnet towel.blinkenlights.nl and hit return. Again, this has  
> nothing
> to do with the Web but is being streamed over the Internet.
> Regarding the "dynamic". Not too many years ago, work that was built  
> around
> the artist creating a number of static HTML pages and linking them  
> together
> internally, was considered Netart. That can be said to be dynamic in  
> a sense
> as it is action-based but eventually you will find yourself in an  
> unchanging
> loop. Today, with the general public constantly pouring new content  
> into the
> Internet and the linking of measuring and recording equipment to the
> Internet (as in the seismic data sample above) the work can be much  
> more
> dynamic with the action being mixed with live, real-time data in a  
> way that
> the work constantly evolves into something else, never repeating  
> itself.
>> Netart 2.0 cannot function without an active network connection
>> I don't understand how you can talk about net art without the net.  
>> You may
>> have a representation of net art that is disconnected but it will  
>> just be
>> that, a passive representation of net art and not net art. I  
>> believe you
>> might misunderstand net art 1.0 as software art or multimedia.
> A lot of work has been produced that gives the appearance of being
> dynamically linked to the Internet but isn't really. I'm referring for
> instance to Flash movies and websites that could essentially be  
> downloaded
> in their entirety and run locally with no Internet connection at  
> all. I gave
> a talk once at the art academy here in Iceland where I explained  
> this by
> giving a few examples. For instance, I located a Flash movie in
> Rhizome.org's artbase that was labeled as Netart, ran it once while
> connected to the Internet, then downloaded it to my computer,  
> unplugged the
> ethernet cord and ran the Flash movie again. It ran just as well as  
> when I
> was connected. There is a lot of other work that will stop  
> functioning as
> soon as you disconnect from the Internet. I'm saying that that is  
> Netart
> 2.0, the other work essentially just uses the Internet for  
> distribution.
>> Netart 2.0 may or may not be interactive
>> In my understanding net art requires a network to be, therefore an
>> interaction between at least two entities (human or machine). I  
>> believe the
>> term 'viewer' needs a better definition for your manifesto. Also,on  
>> the
>> internet there is required interaction as it is a fundamental of  
>> even the
>> earliest web pages (hypertext). Interactivity is what generated net  
>> art.
> OK, let's refer then to the "viewer" as "the person experiencing the  
> work."
> That person does not need to interact with the work. The work can be
> interacting internally with data accessible over the network. And  
> again, you
> refer here to "web pages" whereas the Internet is far more extensive  
> than
> that. Yes, the work is interactive in the sense that it is  
> interacting with
> network but more often than naught, when people use the term  
> "interactive"
> they are referring to the ability of those experiencing the work to
> influence it through interactivity. It's part of the experience as  
> well as
> the production. I'm essentially saying that it can be part of the  
> production
> without being part of the experience.
>> Netart 2.0 may or may not be accessible on-line
>> Do you mean there can be an offline network for net art to exist?  
>> And does
>> the real-world correspond to this new environment for net art 2.0?  
>> (I have a
>> small definition of web 3.0 as 'the biological, digital analog web  
>> where
>> information is made of a plethora of digital values coalesced for  
>> sense and
>> linked to the real-world by analog interfaces' on
>> http://www.zzz.ch/bootymachine/web3.0/  , maybe it can relate to  
>> this, I'd
>> be happy to get your feedback).
> What I mean here is that the result of the work, what the public
> experiences, doesn't have to be experienced over the Internet, i.e.  
> on a
> webpage. It can be a gallery installation consisting of a computer or
> computers connected to the Internet, extracting data to produce the  
> work.
> There is a common assumption that all Netart can be experienced from  
> the
> solitude and comfort of one's home. This is not always the case. A  
> lot of
> the work of Jonah Brucker-Cohen is a good example of this.
> In a way, you could say that this touches on your discussion about the
> evolution of the web. I think you're right in that we will be  
> experiencing
> more of the Internet in our "biological" surroundings especially  
> with the
> growing ubiquity of wireless connections and small, simple devices  
> that are
> capable of using them. I heard about a group recently that built a
> wifi-enabled webserver that they called "The Fly" because it wasn't  
> much
> larger than a fly.
>> Netart 2.0 is not science
>> Here, I don't understand why and how you can exclude the science in  
>> net
>> art (or online art). Basically working with media protocols to put  
>> the work
>> online already induces a bias in the work that just doesn't make it
>> artist-only-created. All who creates using these tools know what the
>> limitations inherent to protocols can do to the creative process,  
>> and to me
>> it is part science not to be random noise (even if it is beautiful  
>> noise).
>> My personal view is that you can simply not say that of any net  
>> art, as
>> there is automatically some part of science in the use of language.
> Based on what you say here then painting is science as well, as is  
> pottery
> and a variety of other forms of artistic creation. The way I see it,  
> the
> ultimate goal of science is to provide answers that are as  
> infallible as
> possible. Art does just the opposite. If it attempts to answer  
> anything at
> all, it usually does so in a much more suggestive manner. More often  
> though,
> it suggests questions. I think that artists tend to work in a much  
> more
> chaotic and fluid manner than scientists. Scientists are methodical,
> cataloging everything that happens along the way. Perhaps some  
> artists do
> this as well but for me, science has no more to do with the way I  
> create my
> art than what it has to do with i.e. painting. The sciences provide  
> the
> materials but that's where the relationship ends. One of the reasons I
> pointed out the seismic data above is that I'm currently creating a  
> piece
> that uses live, real-time seismic data obtained over the Internet.  
> It really
> doesn't matter to me what the numbers I receive mean. My handling of  
> them
> within the framework is entirely qualitative. What matters to me is  
> how they
> affect the resulting visuals. Yes, an actual earthquake will produce  
> the
> most dramatic results in the work but what that means as far as the  
> tectonic
> plates go, doesn't matter to me at all. So I'm using scientific  
> readings in
> a very non-scientific way and I can do that because my artwork is not
> science.
>> Finally, I just want to say I really don't see much in your  
>> manifesto that
>> defines 'newness' from what net art is (I mean v1.0). Most of what  
>> you state
>> was already there since a long time, but it is true most casual- 
>> viewers'
>> online experience dates only from a few years at max. Maybe there  
>> should
>> first be a manifesto to better define net art 1.0 ?
> You are correct. These points I mention have been around for a long  
> time
> now. But until now I don't know of anyone who has specifically  
> discussed
> these points in this manner in an attempt to define their work and  
> that's
> why I wrote it.
> best r.
> Pall

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