[NetBehaviour] naughty boy

Thu Aug 20 11:25:25 CEST 2009

Simon,
I was actually referring to James' original post where he states the following:

don't fool yourself into believing universities are places
of learning. like any institution in these modern times
anything that they claim to be is just a front for making
money. universities are about making money for the people
who own them (whoever they may be), and if that gets in
the way of genuine real world education, so be it.

I was just pointing out that it's not fair to say that universities
are a "front for making money" without also stating that the money
being made is keeping the university in operation.

Pall

On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Simon Biggs<s.biggs at eca.ac.uk> wrote:
> Referring to Pall’s post – I wasn’t suggesting that Universities are getting
> rich. Yes, they are non-profit usually. In the UK they are not even private
> but public institutions funded from tax payers money (well, one – Buckingham
> -  out of 130, is a private University in the form that an American would
> recognise it). However, they cannot lose money either or they will close,
> especially in the current climate where the UK Government has run out of
> surplus funds. I don’t know about the States but in the UK the situation
> Alan described at Florida State is default, where each department has to buy
> services from others and the centre. It is a form of internal market. If a
> department loses money it has to claw it back somehow. There is little
> latitude in the system. Healthy departments will usually have a range of
> students from foundation through to PhD. This allows them to spread income
> and risk but cross-subsidy between courses and programmes doesn’t happen so
> you cannot expect a profitable programme to support another. Courses, even
> departments, do close down at quite short notice and as there is no concept
> of tenure in the UK even senior staff have little job security – when an
> institution needs to down-size, as many currently are, they can be flexible
> and do so quite quickly.
>
> I note that even at prestige US institutions, like Harvard, there are
> similar pressures and radical solutions being implemented.
>
> Best
>
> Simon
>
>
> Simon Biggs
> Research Professor
> edinburgh college of art
> s.biggs at eca.ac.uk
> www.eca.ac.uk
> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
>
> simon at littlepig.org.uk
> www.littlepig.org.uk
> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ian Smith-Heisters <i at idiosyncra.tc>
> Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
> <netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:02:49 -0700
> To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
> <netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] naughty boy
>
> These is innaresting questions to me. I definitely think education is most
> valuable for the connections it gets you. I would regard my education as a
> complete waste if it were not for the job I got the summer after graduation,
> which led to another job, which got me some training, which allowed me to
> start a profitable consulting career. Whether that was worth 50,000 USD (I
> got off cheap) is questionable. Being an engineer on the edge of Silicon
> Valley, there are plenty of opportunities for stable 6-figure salaries and
> "cash outs". I've passed up several positions in favor of part-time
> employment that gives me a mix of financial stability and free time to
> pursue my artistic interests. Doing this, I've noticed two ugly edges: 1)
> Other artists disregard me as unprofessional because I haven't chased
> grants. It's been a more efficient use of effort to just fund myself. Many
> professional artists in SF are trustafarians, and don't need to worry about
> the risk of living grant-to-grant. 2) I'm increasingly looking at combining
> my art and my work--the work becomes more fun, the art becomes more
> practical. Being a software engineer lends itself well to this mindset, as
> I'm used to building things that I find elegant and beautiful, and yet that
> are very useful. At what point, however, does the art become design? This is
> an important business question: many of my clients are bonafide artists, but
> is my "firm" a design firm? How do I market myself? How do I find jobs that
> are fun and lucrative? -ISH http://idiosyncra.tc On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at
> 3:47 AM, Pall Thayer<pallthay at gmail.com> wrote: > Oh, and I don't think it's
> quite correct to say that Universities are > just out to make money. It
> costs a lot of money to run a quality > university. The best way to get the
> most for your money is to keep > going. Masters and Doctoral students are
> far more likely to receive > grants and tuition wavers. It's perfectly
> reasonable that > undergraduate students generally pay the most out of their
> pockets > because they return the least to the university whereas advanced >
> degree students can potentially bring added recognition and funds. > Most,
> if not all, universities are non-profit organizations. So any > money that
> comes in stays in. There aren't many people getting "rich" > off
> universities. > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Simon
> Biggs<s.biggs at eca.ac.uk> wrote: >> There are intense Taylorist pressures in
> society at this time and the >> current UK government is playing to that
> tune. It is a pity. >> >> As for how academic institutions think – yes, they
> have to consider their >> bottom line. That means weighing up the costs and
> likely gain for each of >> their activities. No institution can run an
> activity at a loss for too long >> and it is always hard to argue for
> cross-subsidy from profitable to >> unprofitable courses, especially in the
> transparent costing regime that now >> exists (where departments and courses
> have to pay for the internal>> institutional resources they use and then
> break even or generate a surplus >> against other institutional activities).
>>> >> However, it is important to remember that not all courses cost the
> same to >> run. Chalk and talk, like Media Studies, History and many other
> social >> science and humanities subjects, are relatively cheap to run,
> especially in >> those institutions without strong tutorial based traditions
> (that means most >> new Universities). Other courses are far more expensive,
> sometimes by >> multiple factors. These include the creative arts, film and
> TV, medicine, >> architecture, mathematics and engineering. But the fees
> institutions can >> charge are not really variable, although the gearing
> employed by HEFCE/SHEFC >> to calculate the annual grant is subject
> sensitive. That goes some way to >> paying these extra costs – but not all
> the way. It is then a political >> decision whether to subsidise certain
> subjects to ensure they survive. >> Currently creative arts subjects are
> getting a relatively good deal. >> >> In Scotland we have no student fees so
> the situation is very different to >> the rest of the UK. However, it is not
> a bed or roses – even for the >> students. The unit resource per student
> here is falling in comparison to the >> UK and will fall further if UK fees
> rise and Scotland sustains free Higher >> Education at the point of
> delivery. This will be bad news for both>> institutions and students north
> of the border as we will struggle to compete >> with the UK market, losing
> our best staff and, eventually, students  - who >> will follow quality, even
> if it costs more. >> >> Personally I do not know what the solution for this
> is – expect wholesale >> reform of the system both sides of the border. I
> don’t like the idea of >> students running up massive debts and am
> comfortable with the redistributive >> aspects of paying for education
> through general taxation. However, as mostly >> middle-class kids benefit
> from HE access the question then is from whom is >> the money being
> redistributed and to whom? In this context a graduate tax >> system (as is
> run in Australia) might actually be fairer and more >> redistributive in
> favour of traditionally disadvantaged socio-economic >> groups. >> >> It is
> a difficut issue to untangle and I wonder if there ever was a golden >> age
> of Higher Education? >> >> Best >> >> Simon >> >> Simon Biggs >> Research
> Professor >> edinburgh college of art >> s.biggs at eca.ac.uk >> www.eca.ac.uk
>>> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ >> >> simon at littlepig.org.uk >>
> www.littlepig.org.uk >> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk >> >> >>
> ________________________________ >> From: Corrado Morgana
> <corradomorgana at blueyonder.co.uk> >> Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked
> distributed creativity >> <netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org> >> Date: Wed, 19
> Aug 2009 10:58:15 +0100 >> To: 'NetBehaviour for networked distributed
> creativity' >> <netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org> >> Subject: Re:
> [NetBehaviour] naughty boy >> >> A recent radio4 article..some minister
> discussing the cost of education.The >> gist: If a student can’t afford an
> education then they should look for >> courses which will guarantee an
> income after the course. AAARRGGGHH!!! >> Educational institutes as we know
> are businesses, they will taylor their >> courses to those that make money
> and get students-art courses and especially >> media arts related courses
> are being chewed up and mauled by increased >> student targets
> (international and national) lower funding and critically >> for this
> argument, higher student fees. If students who cannot afford >> courses are
> vectored towards courses that will generate employment, such as >> was
> mentioned apprenticeships, my fear is that this will create a more >>
> taylorised and stratified class system-I think most have heard this before.
>>> Those less well off will end up doing apprenticeships while the other
> more >> well off will enter the more academic and creative ‘stuff’ [trust
> funds and >> old boy networks help]. This is a pattern I’m see in arts
> education already. >> I came from an immigrant, council housed, NHS,
> breadline family and ended up >> going through further education the year
> before student loans were>> introduced…phew, would never have been able to
> otherwise have completed or >> even started an arts education.. the other
> options would have been a welding >> apprenticeship and the steelworks, all
> noble but the equivalent of a slow >> painful death for me at the time.
> (computer salesman nearly killed me as >> well!) >> >> The art scene that I
> mix in is largely not trustafarian and wealthy. Bright, >> intelligent and
> academic, a healthy mix of social backgrounds >> We might end up filling
> Britain’s deficit of plumbers and bricklayers-some >> whose ‘hobbies’ might
> be art; some who genuinely contribute, create and >> evolve ‘art’. But
> implicit taylorisation worries me, as does Sennet, for >> other reasons >>
>>> Rant over.. >> >> C >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From:
> netbehaviour-bounces at netbehaviour.org >>
> [mailto:netbehaviour-bounces at netbehaviour.org] On Behalf Of Simon Biggs >>
> Sent: 19 August 2009 8:20 AM >> To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed
> creativity >> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] naughty boy >> >> Hi Alan >> >> I
> wasn’t trying to address that argument – just questioning whether >>
> education and work ethic are enough to facilitate a meaningful life. Yes, >>
> decent health care is important. A degree of financial security highly >>
> deslirable. >> >> The US spends more of its GDP on health care (16%) than
> any other country in >> the world and yet is the only OECD country not to
> have some form of >> universal care. The outcome of that is that average US
> life expectancy is >> lower than the OECD average (even lower than the UK’s
> – whose NHS costs 8% >> of GDP and has taken such a battering in the US
> media recently). What Obama >> is trying to do with US health care looks way
> overdue and only sensible. >> Those arrayed against him look like selfish
> big business protecting its >> bottom line at the expense of the people. >>
>>> Mind you, everyone admires American teeth ;) >> >> Best >> >> Simon >> >>
>>> Simon Biggs >> Research Professor >> edinburgh college of art >>
> s.biggs at eca.ac.uk >> www.eca.ac.uk >> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ >> >>
> simon at littlepig.org.uk >> www.littlepig.org.uk >> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk >>
>>> ________________________________ >> >> From: Alan Sondheim
> <sondheim at panix.com> >> Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed
> creativity >> <netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org> >> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009
> 20:15:26 -0400 (EDT) >> To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed
> creativity >> <netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org> >> Cc: Theory and Writing
> <WRYTING-L at listserv.wvu.edu> >> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] naughty boy >>
>>> >> >> It's not instrumentalist; it's more fundamental. If you're crazy
> with >> stress because of bad health care, little or no income, you just
> don't >> function well. If you have students, I assume you're full time - my
> two >> courses at SVA won't even pay the bills (adjuncts get next to
> nothing). I >> have nightmares over this, migraines, etc. In other words
> there has to be >> a modicum of feeling you're not going to lose your
> apartment or your >> teeth, you're going to have some sort of stability
> somewhere. I don't have >> that - it doesn't sound like 'naughty boy' does
> either. >> >> - Alan >> >> On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Simon Biggs wrote: >> >>> I
> always feel guilty seeking to justify to students why they should >>>
> persist >>> with completing their degrees, whether BA, MA or PhD – so I
> don’t. They >>> often say they want a degree so they can get a decent job
> and balance that >>> with their creative practice. They say they see me,
> with a job and an >>> artistic career, as a role model. I point out to them
> I left school at 15 >>> with no qualifications -  to be a hippy. Other than
> being an artist and >>> coincidentally securing various positions because of
> my artistic >>> activities, >>> including my current one, I have never had
> what I consider a real job in >>> my >>> life. I’m just a good for nothing
> artist – at least in the eyes of the >>> taxi >>> driver or plumber I often
> encounter (people with real jobs). It seems that >>> being good for nothing
> can be more rewarding than being socially useful. >>> >>> I find it a
> worrying that people judge themselves by whether they are >>> gainfully
> employed or not. Everyone has something to contribute. We live >>> in >>>
> societies, both poor and wealthy, that historically have tolerated >>>
> significant percentages of their populations being what, in todays terms,
>>>> we >>> would consider economically inactive. However, economic
> inactivity does >>> not >>> mean a lack of productivity. There are so many
> ways that people can >>> contribute value to themselves and those around
> them without getting a >>> job. >>> I never wanted a job anyway! >>> >>> We
> should not allow an instrumentalist view of life to become >>> paradigmatic,
>>>> especially in creative practice. That is the death of the artist. >>>
>>>> Best >>> >>> Simon >>> >>> >>> Simon Biggs >>> Research Professor >>>
> edinburgh college of art >>> s.biggs at eca.ac.uk >>> www.eca.ac.uk >>>
> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ >>> >>> simon at littlepig.org.uk >>>
> www.littlepig.org.uk >>> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Alan
> Sondheim <sondheim at panix.com> >>> Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked
> distributed creativity >>> <netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org> >>> Date: Tue, 18
> Aug 2009 13:25:23 -0400 (EDT) >>> To: Theory and Writing
> <WRYTING-L at listserv.wvu.edu> >>> Cc: <netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org> >>>
> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] naughty boy >>> >>> My degree's in english,
> which has been useless all >>> these years; Azure's is in environmental
> conservation from NYU (mine's >>> from Brown). She hasn't been able to get
> work; I teach from time to time, >>> part-time, and the stress is
> incredible; I think about suicide, running >>> away with Azure, etc. etc.
>>>> >>> >>> Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in
> Scotland, number >>> SC009201 >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> | current internet text
> file: http://www.alansondheim.org/qf.txt >> | Alan Sondheim Mail archive:
>  http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ >> | Webpage (directory) at
> http://www.alansondheim.org >> | sondheim at panix.com, sondheim at gmail.org, tel
> US 718-813-3285 >> ! http://www.facebook.com/alan.sondheim >> >>
> ________________________________ >> >>
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> College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number >> SC009201
>>> >> >> >> ________________________________ >>
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> College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number >> SC009201
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> ***************************** > Pall Thayer > artist >
> http://www.this.is/pallit > ***************************** >
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-- 
*****************************
Pall Thayer
artist
http://www.this.is/pallit
*****************************