[NetBehaviour] [stuff-it] FW: Only 33 per cent of Americansbelieve in evolution

Renee Turner geuzen at xs4all.nl
Sun Jul 12 12:39:21 CEST 2009


Simon, I'm so glad you're on this list.  Love the line about all  
polite conversations being forgotten...so true, so true...

btw: having a bit of a Shakespearean flashback following this thread.   
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt  
of in your philosophy." And we all know what happened next ;-)

anyway, although lurking... enjoying following the conversation,

Renee
http://www.fudgethefacts.com/
http://www.geuzen.org/

On Jul 12, 2009, at 11:59 AM, Simon Biggs wrote:

> I think it is OK for James to be offended and to express it. Just as  
> I am free to offend he is free to be offended. There wouldn’t be  
> very many interesting conversations without a bit of offence thrown  
> in. None of the more polite conversations I have had are amongst the  
> most interesting (in fact, I can’t remember any polite  
> conversations, period – all forgotten).
>
> Regards
>
> Simon
>
>
> Simon Biggs
> Research Professor
> edinburgh college of art
> s.biggs at eca.ac.uk
> www.eca.ac.uk
> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/
>
> simon at littlepig.org.uk
> www.littlepig.org.uk
> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
>
>
> From: Montserrat Bru Manobens <zumzumgallery at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity <netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org 
> >
> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:02:44 +0200
> To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity <netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org 
> >
> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] [stuff-it] FW: Only 33 per cent of  
> Americansbelieve in evolution
>
> James,
> I´m quite amused by ur reprimanding/indoctrinating drift concerning  
> Simon´s txt.
> Why somebody should stop himself from speaking his mind, is beyond  
> my comprehension.
> Why, when talking faith/beliefs/religion should anyone pretend to be  
> politically correct?
> If u feel offended by Simon´s point of view, obviously u´ve got a  
> problem with the exercise of freedom of speech, which by the way,  
> happens to be a human right.
> Thoughts are free.
>
> On the subject " what has been done in *the name of faith*
> by those who abuse their power", it would be more accurate to say  
> "what is currently being done now by those who abuse their power".  
> In present time.
>
> On the subject "To equate faith with deathcamps,.........these are  
> all things arising from fear, not faith." I have to differ. In  
> "premier league" religions, faith&fear go together since ever and  
> the result is invariably pain. Just look at the news, behind any  
> kind of big deal that´s bringing misery to the people, there´s  
> always the veiled support of one religious group or another. And I´m  
> not even talking terrorism!
>
> Best,
>
> Montse
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 1:03 AM, james morris <james at jwm-art.net>  
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Simon,
>>
>> I find your attitude quite offensive, but I am not of religious  
>> faith.
>> Maybe I have some kind of faith in something - we all need to have  
>> some
>> kind of faith. Science has shown faith to have evolutionary purpose  
>> in
>> our survival. There are scientists who believe in God. You come  
>> across
>> as extremely intolerant of other peoples faith and beliefs - I  
>> think you
>> should be intolerant rather of what has been done in *the name of  
>> faith*
>> by those who abuse their power. To equate faith with deathcamps,
>> genocide, and racism is just bollocks, these are all things arising  
>> from
>> fear, not faith.
>>
>> James.
>>
>>
>> On 11/7/2009, "Simon Biggs" <s.biggs at eca.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >There is no reason to respect faith. Faith is the human <quality>  
>> evoked
>> >when people refuse to recognise they might be wrong. Faith is a  
>> cover for
>> >ignorance and an apologia for lacking respect for others. I agree  
>> with
>> >Richard Dawkins on this and see no reason why faith should be  
>> tolerated,
>> >much less respected.
>> >I have no respect for the Pope’s beliefs, although I respect him  
>> as a human
>> >being, no matter what he does (and some Popes have done terrible  
>> things in
>> >the name of faith). All people, even the most difficult, should  
>> have our
>> >basic respect.
>> >However, I do not see why people’s beliefs should be
>> >respected, especially if that means other’s have to censor their  
>> behaviour.
>> >Think of what happened to Salman Rushdie when he critiqued a  
>> religious and
>> >nationalist delusion and those that peddle it. In the name of  
>> respect he had
>> >a fatwah placed upon him and has had to live with that ever since.
>> >Historically, far worse has been done to those who risked the  
>> wrath of the
>> >faithful.
>> >I do not see how, in a society that aspires to recognise that  
>> knowledge can
>> >only be attained through the free and robust critique of what we  
>> already
>> >know, we can respect faith. Faith is the very opposite of that.  
>> Faith is
>> >ignorance. Faith is deathcamps, genocide, racism and exclusivist  
>> concepts of
>> >identity.
>> >Regards
>> >
>> >Simon
>> >
>> >
>> >Simon Biggs
>> >Research Professor
>> >edinburgh college of art
>> >s.biggs at eca.ac.uk
>> >www.eca.ac.uk <http://www.eca.ac.uk>
>> >www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ <http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/>
>> >
>> >simon at littlepig.org.uk
>> >www.littlepig.org.uk <http://www.littlepig.org.uk>
>> >AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >From: Dawn Hayes <realrainmaker at gmail.com>
>> >Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
>> ><netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>> >Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:49:55 -0400
>> >To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
>> ><netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>> >Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] [stuff-it] FW: Only 33 per cent of  
>> Americans
>> >believe in evolution (fwd)
>> >
>> >I try to be respectful of faith, but it does not surprise me when
>> >others do not offer the same courtesy or consideration.
>> >
>> >There are plenty of non-Christians that do not believe in the theory
>> >of evolution. There are scientists that question evolution. Some are
>> >Christian and others are not. Plenty of contributors to science and
>> >other fields of "reason" that we all appreciate came from folks who
>> >believed in God as Christians. Be careful not to turn this into a
>> >ridicule of faith. It may require you to do less "politically  
>> correct"
>> >things, like ridicule, say, Islam. God forbid (and I do capitalize  
>> my
>> >spelling of God).
>> >
>> >Truth is not relative, but we live in a time where relativism
>> >increasingly colors our opinion of what we perceive as true. Perhaps
>> >that is the real problem.
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >
>> >Dawn
>> >
>> >On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 12:16 AM, Montserrat Bru
>> >Manobens<zumzumgallery at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Don´t know what The Province means by Americans. Does it include  
>> Canadians,
>> >> Mexicans and the rest of the Americas, or its just U.S.A?
>> >> Lets hope that the survey referred is more "scientific" than the  
>> article.
>> >> Yes, its a matter of hope & faith that the results are accurate.
>> >> Well, lets say it refers to the U.S.A and this is what wikipedia  
>> says about
>> >> the believes of their people
>> >>
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States#Religion
>> >> According to a 2007 survey, 78.4% of adults identified  
>> themselves as
>> >> Christian,[141] down from 86.4% in 1990.[142] Protestant  
>> denominations
>> >> accounted for 51.3%, while Roman Catholicism, at 23.9%, was the  
>> largest
>> >> individual denomination. The study categorizes white  
>> evangelicals, 26.3% of
>> >> the population, as the country's largest religious cohort;[141]  
>> another
>> >> study estimates evangelicals of all races at 30–35%.[143] The  
>> total
>> >> reporting non-Christian religions in 2007 was 4.7%, up from 3.3%  
>> in
>> >> 1990.[142] The leading non-Christian faiths were Judaism (1.7%),  
>> Buddhism
>> >> (0.7%), Islam (0.6%), Hinduism (0.4%), and Unitarian Universalism
>> >> (0.3%).[141] From 8.2% in 1990,[142] 16.1% in 2007 described  
>> themselves as
>> >> agnostic, atheist, or simply having no religion.[141]
>> >>
>> >> Since 78,4% seem to be Christian, and knowing the bible´s  
>> approach on
>> >> science: Clever Adam took from the tree of science, could  
>> discern between
>> >> good and evil and became too inquisitive, independent... and  
>> mortal! Nice
>> >> plot created by them clever god mongers: Wanna eternal life?  
>> Take from our
>> >> tree of life, but u must not question or even reason or doubt,  
>> because u´re
>> >> a natural born sinner. Just believe what we say, make regular  
>> contributions
>> >> to the church, preferably in cash and if u´re afraid of dying,  
>> rest assured
>> >> u´ll go to heaven.
>> >>
>> >> That´s hard core successful marketing and yes, people dig on  
>> heaven and are
>> >> afraid of dying and they´re afraid of thinking and living too!!!
>> >>
>> >> But anyways, if 33% of U.S.A population believes in evolution,  
>> the results
>> >> are not so gloomy, seeing that in 2007, only 16.1% described  
>> themselves as
>> >> ungodly.
>> >> It shows that some of those 78,4% have a further, lesser gullible
>> >> perspective on the subject. That´s not much, but it´s something
>> >>
>> >> Best
>> >>
>> >> Montse
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 2:40 AM, Alan Sondheim  
>> <sondheim at panix.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> god (?) help us all.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> >>> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 18:53:28 -0400
>> >>> From: Michael Gurstein <gurstein at gmail.com>
>> >>> Reply-To: stuff-it at vancouvercommunity.net
>> >>> To: stuff-it at vancouvercommunity.net, Ottawadissenters at yahoogroups.com
>> >>> Subject: [stuff-it] FW: Only 33 per cent of Americans believe  
>> in evolution
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: Sid Shniad [mailto:shniad at sfu.ca]
>> >>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 2:01 PM
>> >>> Subject: Only 33 per cent of Americans believe in evolution
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.theprovince.com/technology/Science+beliefs+faltering/1776905/stor
>> >>> y.html
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> The Province July 10, 2009
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Science beliefs faltering
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Only 33 per cent of Americans believe in evolution
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Americans still value the nation's scientific achievements, but  
>> unlike
>> >>> most
>> >>> scientists, they often pick and choose which scientific  
>> findings they
>> >>> agree
>> >>> with, especially in the areas of climate change and evolution,  
>> according
>> >>> to
>> >>> a survey released yesterday.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> The survey found nine in 10 scientists accept the idea of  
>> evolution by
>> >>> natural selection, but just a third of the public does. And  
>> while 84 per
>> >>> cent of scientists say the Earth is getting warmer because of  
>> human
>> >>> activity, less than half of the public agrees with that.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> "The public and the scientists have very different views on  
>> many different
>> >>> issues, including the science of evolution and climate change,"  
>> said Scott
>> >>> Keeter of the Pew Research Center. The centre conducted the  
>> wide-ranging
>> >>> telephone survey in collaboration with the American Association  
>> for the
>> >>> Advancement of Science.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> The research included responses from 2,533 scientists in the  
>> AAAS, and
>> >>> 2,001
>> >>> public respondents.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> It found most Americans value the nation's scientific  
>> achievements, but
>> >>> not
>> >>> as much as they did a decade ago.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Although 27 per cent of Americans said scientific advances are  
>> the
>> >>> nation's
>> >>> greatest achievement, that was down from 47 per cent in the  
>> group's May
>> >>> 1999
>> >>> survey.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> The administration of Barack Obama has promised that science  
>> will lead
>> >>> health-care and climate-change policy, and has pledged to seek  
>> a cure for
>> >>> cancer, now the No. 2 killer of Americans.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> According to the survey, most scientists and the public agree  
>> it is
>> >>> appropriate for scientists to take part in political debate  
>> over issues
>> >>> such
>> >>> as stem-cell research.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> And even Americans who disagree with scientific conclusions  
>> think highly
>> >>> of
>> >>> scientists. More than two-thirds of those who say science  
>> conflicts with
>> >>> their religious beliefs still say scientists contribute  
>> significantly to
>> >>> society.
>> >>>
>> >>> !DSPAM:2676,4a5784bf25632001016420!
>> >>>
>> >>> ------=_Part_39296_44589596.1247248851811
>> >>> Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
>> >>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>> >>>
>> >>> <html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0;
>> >>> }</style></head><body><div
>> >>> style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt; color:  
>> #000000'><div><font
>> >>> size="2" face="Arial"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
>> >>> 0pt;"><span style=""><a
>> >>>
>> >>> href="http://www.theprovince.com/technology/Science+beliefs+faltering/177690
>> >>> 5/story.html"
>> >>>
>> >>> target="_blank">http://www.theprovince.com/technology/Science+beliefs+falter
>> >>> ing/1776905/story.html</a></span></p>
>> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span
>> >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
>> >>> 0pt;"><span style="">The Province<span
>> >>>
>> >>> style="">           &
>> >>> nbsp;
>> >>> </span><span
>> >>>
>> >>> style="">           &
>> >>>
>> >>> nbsp;
>> >>>
>> >>> ;            &nb
>> >>>
>> >>> sp;            &
>> >>> nbsp;</span><span
>> >>>
>> >>> style="">           &
>> >>>
>> >>> nbsp;
>> >>>
>> >>> ;            &nb
>> >>> sp;
>> >>>
>> >>>             </sp
>> >>> an>July
>> >>> 10, 2009</span></p>
>> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span
>> >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
>> >>> 0pt;"><b style=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Science
>> >>> beliefs faltering</span></b></p>
>> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span  
>> style="font-size:
>> >>> 12pt;"> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
>> >>> 0pt;"><b style=""><span style="font-size: 18pt;">Only 33 per  
>> cent of
>> >>> Americans
>> >>> believe in evolution</span></b></p>
>> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span
>> >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
>> >>> 0pt;"><span style="">Americans still
>> >>> value the nation's scientific achievements, but unlike most  
>> scientists,
>> >>> they
>> >>>
>> >>> often pick and choose which scientific findings they agree with,
>> >>> especially
>> >>> in
>> >>> the areas of climate change and evolution, according to a  
>> survey released
>> >>> yesterday.</span></p>
>> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span
>> >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
>> >>> 0pt;"><span style="">The survey found
>> >>> nine in 10 scientists accept the idea of evolution by natural  
>> selection,
>> >>> but
>> >>>
>> >>> just a third of the public does. And while 84 per cent of  
>> scientists say
>> >>> the
>> >>>
>> >>> Earth is getting warmer because of human activity, less than  
>> half of the
>> >>> public
>> >>> agrees with that.</span></p>
>> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span
>> >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
>> >>> 0pt;"><span style="">"The public and the
>> >>> scientists have very different views on many different issues,  
>> including
>> >>> the
>> >>>
>> >>> science of evolution and climate change," said Scott Keeter of  
>> the
>> >>> Pew
>> >>> Research Center. The centre conducted the
>> >>> wide-ranging telephone survey in collaboration with the American
>> >>> Association
>> >>> for
>> >>> the Advancement of Science.</span></p>
>> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span
>> >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
>> >>> 0pt;"><span style="">The research
>> >>> included responses from 2,533 scientists in the AAAS, and 2,001  
>> public
>> >>> respondents.</span></p>
>> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span
>> >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
>> >>> 0pt;"><span style="">It found most
>> >>> Americans value the nation's scientific achievements, but not  
>> as much as
>> >>> they
>> >>> did a decade ago.</span></p>
>> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span
>> >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
>> >>> 0pt;"><span style="">Although 27 per
>> >>> cent of Americans said scientific advances are the nation's  
>> greatest
>> >>> achievement, that was down from 47 per cent in the group's May  
>> 1999
>> >>> survey.</span></p>
>> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span
>> >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
>> >>> 0pt;"><span style="">The administration
>> >>> of Barack Obama has promised that science will lead health-care  
>> and
>> >>> climate-change policy, and has pledged to seek a cure for  
>> cancer, now the
>> >>> No. 2
>> >>> killer of Americans.</span></p>
>> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span
>> >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
>> >>> 0pt;"><span style="">According to the
>> >>> survey, most scientists and the public agree it is appropriate  
>> for
>> >>> scientists to
>> >>> take part in political debate over issues such as stem-cell
>> >>> research.</span></p>
>> >>> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span
>> >>> style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
>> >>> 0pt;"><span style="">And even Americans
>> >>> who disagree with scientific conclusions think highly of  
>> scientists. More
>> >>> than
>> >>> two-thirds of those who say science conflicts with their  
>> religious beliefs
>> >>> still
>> >>> say scientists contribute significantly to
>> >>> society.</span></p></font></div></div>
>> >>> !DSPAM:2676,4a5784bf25632001016420!
>> >>>
>> >>> </body></html>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------=_Part_39296_44589596.1247248851811--
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>> >>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>> >>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> CounterTheory of Color project
>> >> http://surveys.polldaddy.com/s/0585AD78EB0ABF57/
>> >>
>> >> Zumzum Gallery. Emerging Arts. India
>> >> Digital Power Poetry project
>> >> House 156. Anjuna Zoor Waddo
>> >> Anjuna 403509 Goa. India
>> >> India cell: +91 9850781599
>> >>
>> >> Zumzum Gallery.Emerging Arts. Barcelona
>> >> post address: Gràcia Fiscal, s.l. Camprodon 1 08012 Barcelona  
>> Spain
>> >> Spain Cell: + 34 629486684
>> >>
>> >> Zumzum Gallery. Emerging Arts. Holland
>> >> post address: Anthonie Camerling 16 3322EA Dordrecht The  
>> Netherlands
>> >> Holland Cell: + 31(0) 613539662
>> >>
>> >> Skype: zumzumgallery
>> >>
>> >> http://www.zumzumgallery.com/
>> >> http://www.digitalpowerpoetrycom/
>> >> http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=29089193 
>>  <http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=29089193 
>> >
>> >> http://montserratbru.blogspotcom/
>> >>
>> >> zumzumgallery at gmail.com
>> >> digitalpowerpoetry at gmail.com
>> >> mbru at zumzumgallery.com
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> NetBehaviour mailing list
>> >> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>> >> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,  
>> that
>> >whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting
>> >life." -John 3:16
>> >
>> >"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, but we are
>> >spiritual beings having a human experience."--Pierre Teilhard de
>> >Chardin
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >NetBehaviour mailing list
>> >NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>> >http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>> >
>> >
>> >Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in  
>> Scotland, number SC009201
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>
>
> -- 
> CounterTheory of Color project
> http://surveys.polldaddy.com/s/0585AD78EB0ABF57/
>
> Zumzum Gallery. Emerging Arts. India
> Digital Power Poetry project
> House 156. Anjuna Zoor Waddo
> Anjuna 403509 Goa. India
> India cell: +91 9850781599
>
> Zumzum Gallery.Emerging Arts. Barcelona
> post address: Gràcia Fiscal, s.l. Camprodon 1 08012 Barcelona Spain
> Spain Cell: + 34 629486684
>
> Zumzum Gallery. Emerging Arts. Holland
> post address: Anthonie Camerling 16 3322EA Dordrecht The Netherlands
> Holland Cell: + 31(0) 613539662
>
> Skype: zumzumgallery
>
> http://www.zumzumgallery.com/
> http://www.digitalpowerpoetrycom/
> http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=29089193 
>  <http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=29089193 
> >
> http://montserratbru.blogspotcom/
>
> zumzumgallery at gmail.com
> digitalpowerpoetry at gmail.com
> mbru at zumzumgallery.com
>
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