[NetBehaviour] Code Is Not Literature
Alan Sondheim
sondheim at panix.com
Mon Jan 27 08:42:34 CET 2014
Is this to me? I have no idea; this is Bishop's comparison. If he means
elegance or eloquence or classicism, which is what I assume he means, then
Einstein fits the bill. I don't particularly like Shakespeare myself.
- Alan
On Mon, 27 Jan 2014, Pall Thayer wrote:
> I don't understand. What should we be looking for in Shakespear's
> writing?
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Alan Sondheim
> <sondheim at panix.com> wrote:
>
> Look at Einstein's original papers on relativity for
> one thing.
> But Shakespeare is a red herring; how many writers
> would bear the comparison?
>
> On Mon, 27 Jan 2014, Bishop Zareh wrote:
>
> If the code read as well as Shakespeare then
> there would be no question that
> it is literature; I think their question is: is
> it likely that mathematics
> can be so eloquently conveyed as to warrant
> literary analysis.
>
> Bz
>
> ??? Sent Mobile ???
>
> On Jan 26, 2014, at 9:07 PM, Pall Thayer
> <pallthay at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Don't get me wrong, Alan, I value your opinion
> and always feel
> that you give very interesting input into these
> sorts of
> discussions. True, we don't know Emily
> Dickinson's intent but we
> do know that she presented herself as a literary
> figure and can
> assume her intent from there. Likewise, we know
> what Duchamp
> presented himself as before the urinal and can
> view that work
> within that context. Should we not do the same
> with code? If a
> coder has not presented in a way that the code
> is worth reading,
> then we assume that it's not worth reading.
> However, if they
> have... then it should be essential reading, no?
> Anything else
> would be like a painter saying, "Look at my use
> of color..." and
> then regarding black and white photos of his
> paintings. No?
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 9:51 PM, Alan Sondheim
> <sondheim at panix.com>
> wrote:
>
> If you find it absurd, actually there's no way
> to argue
> with that.
>
> Ok, it's absurd. As I keep saying, it's a family
> of
> usages, everyone has different opinions; you and
> I aren't
> going to come to an agreement, again by a long
> shot! :-)
>
> - Alan
>
> On Sun, 26 Jan 2014, Pall Thayer wrote:
>
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> package absurd;
> sub new {
> $this = new absurd();
> }
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 9:11 PM, Pall
> Thayer
> <pallthay at gmail.com> wrote:
> A lot of this makes no sense to me.
> It
> sounds like people are
> taking things at face value without
> considering the multitude of
> scenarios. Paintbrushes, staples or
> nails are as likely to
> become significant elements of a
> work of
> art as a urinal(!),
> depending on the artist's intent.
> Trying
> to comment on any of
> these in a single sentence or even
> paragraph is absurd. As is
> the attempt to analyze whether or
> not
> code is literature or not.
> The fact that it's code does not
> make it
> literature. The fact
> that words are contained within a
> book
> does not make it
> literature. It depends on the
> intent. We
> could produce a book
> that contains an alphabetical
> listing of
> all known brand names
> in the world and release it under
> different contexts. One could
> be issued as a reference manual, the
> other could be released as
> a poem. These would be viewed very
> differently. Likewise, we
> could take a photo of a bicycle and
> publish the same photo in
> several different ways. One could
> warn
> of the dangers of
> cycling. Another could promote the
> benefits of cycling. A third
> could be devoted to the aesthetics
> of
> the bicycle itself.
> Some code is intended to be read. And that
> doesn't necessarily draw
> from its performance. It may be that a
> reading
> of the code provides
> one message while the running of it
> provides
> another. Perhaps
> experiencing both will better inform the
> work.
> I don't know. It
> doesn't really matter.
>
> My primary message is that wondering
> whether
> code is literature or not
> is absurd. It may or may not be. But to
> attempt to present any
> argument that may indicate that you feel
> it
> might not be, is absurd.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Rob Myers
> <rob at robmyers.org> wrote:
> On 26/01/14 03:14 PM, Alan Sondheim
> wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Jan 2014, Rob Myers
> wrote:
> >> Reading Mezangelle is like running code
> to
> debug it -
> watching call
> >> stack frames being pushed and popped
> and
> data being created
> and operated
> >> on. You have to keep track of nested
> contexts and back
> references. Each
> >> new word fragment or piece of
> punctuation
> can operate on and
> transform
> >> the previously read elements. Even when
> you've parsed
> Mezangelle it's
> >> unstable and active, whether it reduces
> to
> a singular meaning
> or is more
> >> ambiguous. This is different from
> 1337-style encoding.
> >>
> > True, but it's not that different from
> the
> waves that occurs
> in more
> > traditional poetry. You're not debugging
> Mezangelle and you're
> not
> > running it; you're interpreting it and
> one
> person's
> interpretation is
> > different from anothers (which is also
> true
> btw of antiorp and
> poetry).
> > Also you're assuming a stability in 1337
> which might not be
> there.
>
> I agree that traditional poetry obviously
> has
> structure and
> flow, and
> can transform meaning over the course of
> being
> read with great
> subtlety
> or degree. I do think that the nature of
> the
> re-reading and
> re-thinking
> that Mezangelle requires and affords via
> its
> syntax is more
> compact than
> plain language poetry. And that this
> compactness of notation is
> a
> quality of some kinds of code.
>
> Some programming languages are interpreted
> and
> it's obviously
> possible
> for two runs of a program to give
> different
> output. In this
> sense there
> are different interpretations of the same
> text
> when interpreted
> by
> computer, as there are when interpreted by
> a
> human being. I'm
> certainly
> not arguing that Mezangelle is Meme RNA,
> but I
> think these
> comparisons
> are useful.
>
> I can't speak to antiorp. :-( I shall
> investigate, thank you.
>
> 1337 is inherently ironic but it's also
> very
> much a shared joke
> and
> shibboleth for cliques. It involves much
> play
> but is more
> instrumental.
>
> >> Regarding Seibel's comments on code as
> literature, James
> makes a good
> >> point about paintbrushes. We don't read
> shopping lists or
> meeting notes
> >> as literature, yet they are written.
> Code
> does not tend to be
> written as
> >> literature. It's possible to read code
> for
> pleasure and to
> find its
> >> formatting and data structures, its
> *form*,
> aesthetically
> satisfying.
> >> Code is mathematics, so this is similar
> to
> enjoying a
> mathematical proof.
> >
> > Here I do disagree with you; reading-as
> is
> something that at
> least I,
> > and I assume many others do (just as
> such
> lists were read by
> Braudel as-
> > history). Example - I'm currently
> reading
> Walsh's Mercantile
> Aritmetic,
> > published in Newbury, Mass, in 1800 -
> which
> is just what the
> title says,
> > but which reads like a fantastic epic,
> especially the sections
> dealing
> > with monetary exchange (I might quote
> later,
> because the
> writing is
> > amazing).
>
> Reading-as is closer to Siebel's concern.
> I
> greatly enjoy the
> lists in
> (for example) the Cornelius Quartet, "The
> Sale
> Of The Late
> King's Goods"
> or "JPod". And there may be a program
> listing
> out there waiting
> to be
> discovered as literature. But I'm doubtful
> of
> this for reasons
> of what I
> guess are "family resemblance".
>
> We could go Situationist and simply
> nominate a
> particular
> listing as a
> novel, but this would I think be different
> from what we are
> discussing here.
>
> > I also am not sure that "Code is
> mathematics" just because
> it's exact;
> > certainly at the level of machine
> language,
> it follows strict
> protocols.
>
> "Software is math" is a core argument in
> the
> non-patentability
> of software:
>
> "When people say that software is math,
> they
> mean that in the
> most
> direct, literal sense." -
>
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/timothylee/2011/08/11/software-is-jus
> t-math-rea
>
> lly/
>
> > Mathematical proofs and proof theory are
> complicated - look
> atthe
> > 4-color theorem - and I find
> code-reading
> very different. But
> then I'm
> > neither an astute mathematician or
> programmer.
>
> Code can be very complex as well, I've
> never
> read the whole of
> the Linux
> kernel for example. I don't know the proof
> for
> the 4-colour
> theorem but
> I enjoy the proofs of set theory and find
> that
> mathematics, art
> and code
> have a shared concern with some kind of
> *form*, and some kind of
> *aesthetic* governing it, whatever their
> other
> differences.
>
> >> I think that a piece of software that
> is a)
> structured like
> Emacs to be
> >> self-editing or at least self-revealing
> of
> its code and is b)
> >> constructed to use this facility
> essayistically or
> discursively or
> >> narratively is what would be required
> for
> code to be
> literature. Char
> >> Davies' "Osmose" is a weak example
> (whatever its other
> strengths) of
> >> this.
> >>
> > I really do think there's any sort of
> "requirement" involved,
> maybe
> > part-requirements like part-objects, or
> something along the
> line of
> > "tendencies"; I'm extremely dubious of
> requirements in
> relation to art
> > in general - even the idea that
> art/literature, etc. _should_
> be
> > something as opposed to something else.
> Aesthetics and reading
> > behaviors, reception theory and the
> like, is
> far more complex
> than this.
>
> Again I don't think it's easy to go
> further
> than family
> resemblance in
> the ontology of art.
>
> >> But I may be proposing a gentrification
> of
> code.art. Or
> discussing the
> >> equivalent of why nails and staples
> aren't
> considered more
> important in
> >> the social history of painting. ;-)
> >
> > Well they are important, and there are
> books
> that emphasize
> things like
> > the chemistry of paints etc. - I relate
> this
> again to Braudel
> and the
> > annales school of historiography.
>
> I've just read "Color, Facture, Art And
> Design" (highly
> recommended)
> which is largely a history of grounds and
> pigments and how they
> relate
> to the social content of painting. This
> kind
> of
> technical-conceptual
> integration, is what I am arguing for in
> this
> discussion.
>
> I chose staples and nails because their
> relative volume in the
> material
> and significant construction of painting
> supports is generally
> low and
> contingent. My point was that we have to
> consider the
> possibility that
> code, and I say this as someone almost
> ridiculously invested in
> the idea
> that art can be made with or of code, may
> not
> be strongly
> relevant in
> the critique art made with it.
>
> - Rob.
>
>
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>
> --
> *****************************
> Pall Thayer
> artist
> http://pallthayer.dyndns.org
> *****************************
>
>
>
>
> --
> *****************************
> Pall Thayer
> artist
> http://pallthayer.dyndns.org
> *****************************
>
>
>
> ==
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> --
> *****************************
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> artist
> http://pallthayer.dyndns.org
> *****************************
>
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> web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 347-383-8552
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>
> --
> *****************************
> Pall Thayer
> artist
> http://pallthayer.dyndns.org
> *****************************
>
>
==
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music: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/
current text http://www.alansondheim.org/si.txt
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