[NetBehaviour] Deleuze and Pinterest

Fri Jun 26 05:46:57 CEST 2015

Hi Bishop! Pretty much agree with you, except where you say " If you were 
to convince someone to do something, then the idea traveled from you, to 
them, and then took form." - this isn't really how it works, I think. 
Maturana wrote somewhere that language is the "mutual orienting of 
cognitive domains" - in other words, the idea or concept is of secondary 
importance and itself (I'm putting my own thinking here) mutilated, but as 
long as people agree that the transmission has occurred, the gift, and 
that it satisfies both of them, everything is smoothly processed. People 
are remarkably insulated, idiolectical; we all have our privacies and 
subterranean traits; to call somthing "rational" to me implies otherwise, 
and is thereby skewed, but you and I can use the word "rational" and feel 
that we're understanding each other - what we're doing is orienting 
ourselves to the word as a sed or Barthian punctum, and agreeing we 
comprehend similar meanings, but... of course, but...

- Alan

On Mon, 22 Jun 2015, BishopZ wrote:

> Thank you all for the responses. I've been offline and don't have much
> time to respond.
>
>> Rationality is so tricky, I think; it can reference so many things. Please say more re: Virilio?
>
> The things people find rational do not seem to have any consistency or
> cohesion. However, ideas take their form as action. If you were to
> convince someone to do something, then the idea traveled from you, to
> them, and then took form. Even when an individual makes a decision for
> themselves, they are reviewing their memories, consulting them for
> advice, trying to become convinced.
>
> Convincing someone of an idea is not a purely cognitive process. The
> brain is a part of the body, and it is the full body which makes the
> choice to act. I do not believe analytical philosophers would agree.
> To make rationality a partly biological process, undermines the purity
> of abstracts like mathematics.
>
> Yet to think of rationality in a post-Edward Bernays world where
> persuasion produces substantial material changes, we should look at
> things that do convince people. And as it turns out, looking at what
> convinces people on a global scale has less to do with logic and more
> to do with identity. Written language is great for law and
> mathematics, but images convey more meaning to humans - they are more
> likely to convince.
>
> I like this approach because it still keeps a difference between
> rationality and action. Action applies to the material, involves
> politics, and is more what Virilio speaks to.
>
> In appreciation,
> Bz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 8:47 PM, Alan Sondheim <sondheim at panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I do have an account; I rarely use it, but it worked well. Re: Tiqqun, I
>> didn't like the Young Girl piece - thought it needed more depth, abjection,
>> less fashion, but it was a start. The problem w/suffering in fashion (I've
>> known a lot of people in the industry) is that the suffering is also within
>> fashiion; it's a closed chaotic system.
>>
>> Rationality is so tricky, I think; it can reference so many things. Please
>> say more re: Virilio?
>>
>> Thanks!, Alan
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 21 Jun 2015, BishopZ wrote:
>>
>>> 1) Alan, thank you so much for the response. Keep well, we need you.
>>>
>>> 2) Yes, there is too much fuzziness in my post, I need to break it out
>>> into separate questions.
>>>
>>> 3) I like Tiqquan's other work quite a lot. I read Theory of a Young
>>> Girl and was not sure what to make of it. Will review it again.
>>>
>>> 4) Based on recently posted podcast, I have been working through
>>> Adorno. So, yes, abject suffering, problematic and abject substance -
>>> but I still struggle to translate into images. I need to study it a
>>> bit more. There is so much suffering in fashion...
>>>
>>> 5) My essay attempts to paint rationality as the context, with formal
>>> Aristotelian logic, images and others as merely unique kinds of
>>> rationality. The essay doesn't provide a foundation for how
>>> rationality adjudicates, but rather than a Russell/Whitehead position,
>>> I would ground rationality in persuasion and action, like Virilio
>>> might.
>>>
>>> 6) How did you experience the boards? Do you have a pinterest account?
>>> Lets start there.
>>>
>>> In appreciation,
>>> Bz
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 4:14 PM, Alan Sondheim <sondheim at panix.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Apologies, fuzzy, meant Philosophical Investigations, I jumped for some
>>>> reason to Husserl, bleariness my only excuse - Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 21 Jun 2015, Alan Sondheim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: BishopZ <xchicago at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Bishop - I found the pinterest boards fascinating; there seemed to be
>>>>> two things at work in them - in the first, bwo, the representations
>>>>> seemed
>>>>> to emphasize multiplicities and a certain surplus economics; for me, bwo
>>>>> relate more to ISIS/terror, annihilation to the point that what's left
>>>>> is a
>>>>> form of problematic and abject substance, which also ties into
>>>>> catatonia.
>>>>> The style-a-desire-machine plays into the images of young models, again,
>>>>> a
>>>>> surplus, and the style itself doesn't seem deconstructed - you know the
>>>>> book, Preliminary Materials for a Theory of the Young-Girl - which also
>>>>> seems limited and problematic and on the other hand related to the
>>>>> pinterest
>>>>> images. The theory/essay you wrote seems terrific; I have to read it
>>>>> again
>>>>> (I'm suffering from a very resistant sickness at the moment, apologies),
>>>>> in
>>>>> a couple of days. I do realize I may be missing something here -
>>>>>
>>>>> I can see a _return to logic_ with programming, but the field of logic
>>>>> itself has been traditionally messy - fuzzy logics, intuitionist logics,
>>>>> Piaget's proposotional logics, etc - to the extent that even in Witt's
>>>>> TLP,
>>>>> the logical system based on the sheffer stroke has an enormous amount of
>>>>> arbitrariness in it that led to the Logical Investigations, which have
>>>>> very
>>>>> little to do w/ traditional logic. So when you have "However, up until
>>>>> the
>>>>> last 20 years, logic has been the anchor of written language. The
>>>>> hegemony
>>>>> of logic is not that written language is better than other mediums of
>>>>> expression, but that logic was the most accurate form of rationality.
>>>>> Written language just happened to be better at logic than speech." - I
>>>>> don't
>>>>> see it, because I'm not sure what "logic" means in this context - the
>>>>> Russell/Whitehead approach proved inadeqate by the early decades of the
>>>>> 20th
>>>>> century w/ all those anomalies. I haven't seen logic used otherwise,
>>>>> maybe
>>>>> in Quine on quotations, I don't know; in any case the Aristotelian stuff
>>>>> was
>>>>> thrown out way earlier. I hope I'm making sense here. Now of course one
>>>>> can
>>>>> talk about the logic of a computer program and even its surface layers
>>>>> (upper layers of protocol suites where pretty much anything and anyone
>>>>> can
>>>>> go), and that gives an insight into what might be thought of as a dark
>>>>> scaffolding which is of great interest, that might even be able to be
>>>>> related to early universe cosmology, but I'm probably wrong here -
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks! Alan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan correctly called me out a few conversations ago - I am an arm
>>>>> chair Deleuze interpreter.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am interested in difference between image logic, spoken logic and
>>>>> written logic. I published an essay about it here:
>>>>> http://bishopz.com/post/7606423793/language-and-computers
>>>>>
>>>>> I put together two boards that relate to Deleuze.
>>>>>
>>>>> One I believe relates to the original concept,
>>>>> the other I believe to be a conflation of the intent of the original
>>>>> concept,
>>>>>
>>>>> Body Without Organs:
>>>>> https://www.pinterest.com/eduatx/style-body-without-organs/
>>>>>
>>>>> Desire Machine:
>>>>> https://www.pinterest.com/eduatx/style-a-desire-machine/
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone have more domain knowledge with this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you tell me, in translating the written work of Deleuze into the
>>>>> image logic of contemporary society, how are those concepts expressed,
>>>>> visually, on medium that are commonly used?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not possible, or is there some image logic to Deleuze? He did write a
>>>>> book or two on film, after all.
>>>>>
>>>>> In appreciation,
>>>>> BishopZ
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ________________________________________________________________
>>>>> ================================================================
>>>>>
>>>>> =--------------------------------------------------------=-===-=-=-====--
>>>>>
>>>>> +_+~_=_~--+__+=-^=-+_+_=^-+__+-=+_+~__=__~-_-____-=++=_--^-===-=-==-=-=--
>>>>>
>>>>> =--------------------------------------------------------=-===-=-=-====--
>>>>>
>>>>> http://bishopZ.com
>>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>>  "` `""- '`'`"` "`"'` `'``"" `'""`'' ''""`" `'''"` `"``'" `"""`" `'`' `'
>>>>>  ..,` "".."' '`"`-., "`"'` `'`^^. ``,', "`''` '.'." `"",` '''" '.`" `"`'
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>>>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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>>>>> NetBehaviour mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> =====================================================
>>>>> directory http://www.alansondheim.org tel 718-813-3285
>>>>> music/sound http://espdisk.com/alansondheim/
>>>>> email sondheim ut panix.com, sondheim ut gmail.com
>>>>> =====================================================
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ==
>>>> email archive http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/
>>>> web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 718-813-3285
>>>> music: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/
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>>>> ==
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ________________________________________________________________
>>> ================================================================
>>> =--------------------------------------------------------=-===-=-=-====--
>>> +_+~_=_~--+__+=-^=-+_+_=^-+__+-=+_+~__=__~-_-____-=++=_--^-===-=-==-=-=--
>>> =--------------------------------------------------------=-===-=-=-====--
>>>
>>> http://bishopZ.com
>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>> "` `""- '`'`"` "`"'` `'``"" `'""`'' ''""`" `'''"` `"``'" `"""`" `'`' `'
>>> ..,` "".."' '`"`-., "`"'` `'`^^. ``,', "`''` '.'." `"",` '''" '.`" `"`'
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>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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>>
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>
>
>
> -- 
> ________________________________________________________________
> ================================================================
> =--------------------------------------------------------=-===-=-=-====--
> +_+~_=_~--+__+=-^=-+_+_=^-+__+-=+_+~__=__~-_-____-=++=_--^-===-=-==-=-=--
> =--------------------------------------------------------=-===-=-=-====--
>
> http://bishopZ.com
> _______________________________________________________________________
> "` `""- '`'`"` "`"'` `'``"" `'""`'' ''""`" `'''"` `"``'" `"""`" `'`' `'
> ..,` "".."' '`"`-., "`"'` `'`^^. ``,', "`''` '.'." `"",` '''" '.`" `"`'
> "' '""""--'"'-"-'' "'---^^ `''`.'+- =--'"" "''' '"" ''" '""'---" ""' '"
> "'"--'"+' '---"' '"-` "`''' `'`"` '"'`"""==-^^^=+-==+-' "' '"" "^''' ""
> "'"=" ""' '""``'" -==--=-"^-==---""---==""-="'''"-`=------^^==="""==--=
> =-=-=-^=-^-="'''" `''-=^-==^-`^' """"''..:"----===---'     ^==-""'-''""
> -=-=-^-+-==-+^+"-----'====-==-='--=-==+=='..:"'"'"-='       `=-=^-="===
> .-=-=-^-+-=+---+==-"=-==--=.-==+=='==-=-""`'"`'====-         =--=""===+
> =-=-=-+=-+-=-=-+^+===+-=+=+-==+--,=---=,=--=-====,==-       '""`"==="-=
> ;;;==---==--===-:==.::;+===+;=+=+-==+-=-+::===---,.,=:.   ..:=;=;,====:
> =-=-=-+=-+.=-=-+++===+-=+=+-==+---=-=-;==--=="==---=---=--=-====-===--:
> .-=-=-^-+-==---+==-=="==--=.-==+=====-=-""`'"`'=====-------`-=--======+
> .,.,.:,.::===========--:===.-=-:===+==+-+++===+-=+=+-==+==-=---====-:::
> ,.:,.::+.::;;;,++---:::====-=-=+=====+-++||I+-=+=+-==+=.::;;;,==:+::"::
> :======--:+."="====+"--"-:===.-=-:==::|?<=|><=":="==-+^-+======--"="==:
> ;;;:::.,--.,,=,.:++++::;======--=>>>|=|?<|??;=:<<<,,:,.::;.::;;;,==;:?:
> :":":--???"======--:;::+++======--?::>|<|"|<>"}}":??======--?===;===--:
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> %%%&%|{M|[@0O&&&&&?%%&&%&%&%&%WWWWM00%%##%&%\m0O at 0@O at 0#X}}^x@]]@0}{{}|]
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> M at O@0O&&&%&m@&%&%&?@?%&m@@$%&m@@$%&m&%W at WWMMM00$&%W at WWMQMX)&@@$%&m@@$MM
> M@#@0O&&&&%%@&%#M at O@0O&&&%&m@&%&@$%&m&%WX)&@@$%@M at 000%%&%&%&#@#%&m@@$M#
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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