[NetBehaviour] An interview with Geert Lovink

ruth catlow ruth.catlow at furtherfield.org
Thu Oct 1 11:21:14 CEST 2015


Dear Annie,

You have thrown the cat amongst the pigeons of my mind!

Of course!

All the time I think - what makes Furtherfield/Netbehaviour 
super-special is this link between what happens in the experiments and 
conversations between us all here on the list, and in the physical 
places in the Furtherfield park venues (and on tour).

The work done by our avant-art-tech networks and communities prompts 
wonderful (I find them wonderful) encounters, activities and 
conversations with park users, local residents (from every country- 
perhaps- in the world) and exhibition visitors (local and international).

But I too have had a feeling of un-ease about a disconnect with the 
conversations that happen here on the list. This list is one of my 
favourite places, and yet I find it hard to advocate for it, to people 
who are not already here. Perhaps because email has now acquired toxic 
associations for many people because of the demands it places on 
'immaterial labourers'.

I have a couple of thoughts about what we might do.

Firstly- a Netbehaviour subscriber could volunteer to host, here on the 
list, any of the following people

  * artists in our upcoming show,
  * a recent student placement student,
  * any member of our regular (overworked) staff-team.

I would invite them to join us as our guest, to talk about their work, 
contribution and experience with Furtherfield. As a host you would be 
responsible for making them feel welcome here and helping them (by 
mailing with them in private) to negotiate conversations if they were to 
get spikey: )

Secondly

If there is an appetite amongst netbehaviourists for more sharing of 
Furtherfield process, it would be easy (and pleasurable, and useful, and 
actually quite a relief) to open up and share some of the things 
happening 'on the ground'. As long as people could tolerate 
incompleteness (we have to take care not invade the privacy of 
collaborators and partners), contradiction (I have an unruly mind), and 
the occasional indefensible statement (we work it out as we go) along 
the way.

To give you a taste of what kinds of topics these might touch on let me 
start with a brain dump of the possible [Netbehaviour] Subject Headers 
about Furtherfield process.

  * DAOWO preparation excitement!
      o see here http://www.furtherfield.org/artdatamoney/debate/

  * Reflections on attempting to maintain critical and politically
    astute art processes - without being po-faced and elitist.

  * Installing work by [insert the names here of every artist in
    Furtherfield's upcoming exhibition The Human Face of Cryptoeconomies
    http://bit.ly/1VrLivJ ] at Furtherfield Gallery.

  * Calculations, tactics and strategies for dealing with Furtherfield
    finances
      o Talking to businesspeople (lots of odd feelings!) and how Jeremy
        Corbyn is helping

  * Summer at the Museum of Contemporary Commodities - open
    participatory process - an extreme sport.
      o pictures here
        https://www.flickr.com/photos/http_gallery/sets/72157656437894006

  * Why Furtherfield Commons has had no landline for 3 months
      o (How BT handed over our line to another service provider without
        our agreement and then wouldn't get it back)

  * Preparations for an upcoming street programme 'The People's Magna
    Carta' at Frequency Festival in Lincoln.

  * The Furtherfield website - opening up to noobs and improving
    diversity of participants
      o 7 placement students make themselves heard (it's all a bit tricky!)

  * Seeds of a plan for an experimental innovation lab for values based
    economies
      o The Oslo Innovation Manual (apparently the role of arts, design
        and culture go unaccounted for)

  * How blockchain is redolent with the decentralised distributed
    promise of the early web
      o How we're not falling for the utopian promise of blockchain -
        but skippy with excitement nevertheless!

  * What 7 placement students said about their Summers with Furtherfield

  * How we are thinking about expanding outward and upward (and inward)
    at the gallery/lab in the park and

Finally...

Thanks to Geert (see subject header) for carrying out this in depth 
experiment with the Netbehaviour subscribers; )
and to Annie for investigating the cause of that sourness; )


What do you reckon???
Tell us, we'll do something!!!

respect due!
Ruth

On 30/09/15 22:11, Annie Abrahams wrote:
> hi Randall,
>
> I am not necesarrily asking for more, better media, for more 
> livelyness, I am not sure I want more ...
> I would like a content re-de-placement, more of the processes going on 
> (artistic and organisational) and les about results and "look what I 
> have done" I would like that there would be more slowness, more 
> attention, more time for open reflexion on what has been done, less 
> representation and for now i see that still more in the mailinglist 
> than on the social media. I think we should reinvent reinvest 
> mailinglists! Netbehaviour first of all.
>
> see you
> Annie
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 5:44 PM, Randall Packer <rpacker at zakros.com 
> <mailto:rpacker at zakros.com>> wrote:
>
>     I’m not sure where to set into this thread, which has become
>     multi-threaded in all sorts of interesting directions.
>
>     Regarding Geert: without going into a complete analysis, it’s not
>     clear to me that he is aware of the many museums in the US and the
>     around the world that are employing social media and what is
>     called “user-generated content” in all sorts of compelling ways
>     that invite engagement and social change. I have taught courses in
>     the Johns Hopkins University Museum Studies program where the
>     students are deeply involved with museum-based social and “visitor
>     engagement,” to use another museum term. I believe the interview
>     does have a few absolutes that have not been thoroughly
>     researched, although I have the utmost respect for Geert and his
>     critique of corporate-based social media: it’s just not fair to
>     museums that are making striking progress, and of course the many
>     alternative arts organizations, maker-faires, and hack-a-thons
>     around the world that are incorporating socially-based forms of
>     art and science.
>
>     Regarding Annie’s concern for place: I agree, we need the means of
>     interaction that while remote, give us a more real-time, visual,
>     media-rich form of interaction and engagement. I enjoy the ease
>     and simplicity of an email list, but there are times you want to
>     see faces, hear voices, trade gestures, communicate with sound,
>     all of which is near impossible in this medium as a live
>     experience. There is no replacing the live: we need to embed the
>     real-time into our networked interactions, which for many of us
>     here has been at the heart of our artistic work and research. We
>     are all nodes on a network, and we need to find ways to engage
>     forms of live connectivity that are as easy as sending an email.
>
>     Randall
>     From: <netbehaviour-bounces at netbehaviour.org
>     <mailto:netbehaviour-bounces at netbehaviour.org>> on behalf of Annie
>     Abrahams
>     Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
>     Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 10:55 AM
>     To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
>     Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] An interview with Geert Lovink
>
>     I have been to a shop to buy some coffee beans and while riding my
>     bike, I thought : wasn't I a bit nasty to
>     furtherfield/netbehaviour? When back I found some reactions that
>     reassured me, but
>     I had been thinking that somehow I was a bit sour on
>     furtherfield/netbehaviour and I asked myself why, what would you
>     like to be different, to change?
>     A small idea popped up : I miss the connexion between furtherfield
>     live in the park (where I imagine a lot of the work is happening)
>     and furtherfield online - especially netbehaviour. Of course there
>     are the announcements, info on the works showed of people I know
>     online, but I miss thoughts by these actual artists who showed,
>     worked with the real place on what is going on, on how the
>     relation is constructed, of what their work does when place in a
>     gallery place. I miss personal stories on this on netbehaviour.
>
>     xxx
>     Annie
>
>     On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 4:39 PM, Pall Thayer <pallthay at gmail.com
>     <mailto:pallthay at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         Fascinating read. On gallery and museum embrace of
>         post-internet art, I think there are two things going on.
>         First of all, it's new and it's acceptance in galleries and
>         museums is probably not much greater than internet art's
>         acceptance was when it was new. Second of all, most of it
>         takes forms which galleries and museums are familiar with,
>         i.e. physical objects, prints, videos, etc. This is a far more
>         attractive fit for commercial art galleries and doesn't pose
>         any significant archiving issues for museums. At least, not
>         ones that they haven't encountered before.
>
>         Pall
>
>         On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 10:26 AM marc garrett
>         <marc.garrett2 at gmail.com <mailto:marc.garrett2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>             Hi Paul, Dave, Annie & all,
>
>             Regarding Geert's interview -- I actually agree with most
>             of what he says. In fact, I tend to agree with most of his
>             ideas and writings.
>
>             I think as a group, we're in tune (usually coincidentally
>             with his reflections) but, living through them within a
>             grounded context, which is of our everyday life experience
>             and as part of surviving as an artist led group in a
>             neoliberalist dominated culture.
>
>             The audience he's talking to is an e-flux audience, and I
>             think e-flux are part of an neoliberalist, elite
>             establishment, so it's positive he is discussing these
>             issues to its audience.
>
>             Although, Paul has mentioned already things have been
>             getting better and there is evidence of things gettign
>             better. I would say that's true in some ways, but it may
>             also be true that some of us have got older and into power
>             and so able to support media art and net art more these
>             days. And before this was not the case ;-)
>
>             Wishing you well.
>
>
>             marc
>
>
>             On 30 September 2015 at 14:07, Paul Hertz
>             <ignotus at gmail.com <mailto:ignotus at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>                 Well, happy to post polemics, it's a kind of a hobby.
>                 :^}.
>
>                 I think there has been a tendency for mainstream
>                 curators to approach more recent digitally-mediated
>                 works as if they were in effect a sort of hybrid old
>                 media, while still neglecting both historical and
>                 current "pure" digital media. This has meant that
>                 certain kinds of digital hard copy (modded
>                 photographic prints, collage and drawings, and even 3D
>                 printing == "post-digital") can be welcomed while the
>                 internet as a platform is generally ignored. I don't
>                 have any more evidence for this than observation, and
>                 I have felt that the situation for digital art was
>                 improving over the last ten years. OTOH, I can readily
>                 understand the impatience.
>
>                 -- Paul
>
>
>
>                 On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 7:56 AM, dave miller
>                 <dave.miller.uk at gmail.com
>                 <mailto:dave.miller.uk at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>                     I think Geert is probably correct though - seems
>                     to me the art "establishment" aren't interested in
>                     internet/ digital art, though maybe they have a
>                     different view of it from us on here.  The art
>                     world remains a mystery to me, so I may well be
>                     wrong. Thank god for Furtherfield, and I would
>                     love to know who are the curators 'not' scared of it.
>
>                     What's the ‘post-digital’ bandwagon?
>
>                     Dave
>
>                     On 30 September 2015 at 13:48, Annie Abrahams
>                     <bram.org at gmail.com <mailto:bram.org at gmail.com>>
>                     wrote:
>
>                         don't be small, don't think sectarism
>                         Geert is closer to "us" than most "others"
>                         get in contact with him, explain and connect,
>                         use his critical energy
>
>                         invite him to curate, to build, to discuss
>
>                         xxx
>                         Annie
>
>                         On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 2:40 PM, NIKOS V
>                         <nikos.vv at gmail.com
>                         <mailto:nikos.vv at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>                             I see the relevance in this approach,
>                             allthough  I have to say its allready to
>                             late for that criticism no?
>
>                             Moreover, is he really interested in art?
>
>                             If yes, as Marc says, where are the
>                             references and the names ?
>
>                             And why is Venice Biennial important?To
>                             whom????
>
>                             2015-09-30 15:36 GMT+03:00 marc.garrett
>                             <marc.garrett at furtherfield.org
>                             <mailto:marc.garrett at furtherfield.org>>:
>
>                                 Hi Paul,
>
>                                 Geert needs to be more specific and
>                                 highlight the curators who are 'not'
>                                 scared and who have been showing
>                                 technical artwork such as Furtherifeld
>                                 & others - his words are not grounded
>                                 and are too absolute, they do not
>                                 reflect reality...
>
>                                 marc
>>                                 http://conversations.e-flux.com/t/geert-lovink-on-social-media-and-the-arts/2581
>>
>>
>>                                 "The absence at the 2015 Venice
>>                                 Bienale of digital arts and internet
>>                                 works says it all. Curators are
>>                                 afraid to admit they are clueless and
>>                                 continue their ignorant attitude
>>                                 towards art that deals with the
>>                                 digital in a direct matter (while
>>                                 checking their smart phone). Everyone
>>                                 jumps on the ‘post-digital’ bandwagon
>>                                 because that’s cute and safe. [...]
>>                                 Curators and critics are more than
>>                                 happy to embrace the race, gender,
>>                                 even the anthroposcene (whatever that
>>                                 is), but are blind for the
>>                                 techno-politics of the equipment and
>>                                 media they are using themselves so
>>                                 intensely. The contradictions are
>>                                 becoming absurd. Video was the last
>>                                 technology they had to deal with, but
>>                                 then it stopped."
>>                                 — Geert Lovink
>>
>>                                 //
>>
>>                                 enjoy,
>>
>>                                 -- Paul
>>
>>
>>                                 -- 
>>                                 -----
>>                                 |(*,+,#,=)(#,=,*,+)(=,#,+,*)(+,*,=,#)| ---
>>                                 http://paulhertz.net/
>>
>>
>>                                 _______________________________________________
>>                                 NetBehaviour mailing list
>>                                 NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org  <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>
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>                                 <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
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>
>
>
>                             -- 
>
>
>                             _______________________________________________
>                             NetBehaviour mailing list
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>                             <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
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>
>
>
>
>                         -- 
>
>                         *26 09 14h* /vivre entre – from estranger to
>                         e-stranger/, une *conférence performée
>                         festival Magdalena, * La Bulle Bleue
>                         <http://www.labullebleue.fr/#%21/magdalenaproject>,
>                         285 rue du Mas de Prunet, Montpellier
>                         aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/
>                         <https://aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/>/*
>                         */
>
>                         /*besides, *
>                         /online performances *On Object Agency *
>                         with Martina Ruhsam
>                         *archives* (text, script, video, images)*/
>                         /*bram.org/besides/ <http://bram.org/besides/>
>
>                         *Marc Garrett* interviewed me for the *Choose
>                         Your Muse* series on *Furtherfield*
>                         furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams
>                         <http://www.furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams>
>
>
>                         */
>                         /*
>
>
>                         _______________________________________________
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>                         <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>                         http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>
>
>                     _______________________________________________
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>                     <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>                     http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>
>
>
>                 -- 
>                 ----- |(*,+,#,=)(#,=,*,+)(=,#,+,*)(+,*,=,#)| ---
>                 http://paulhertz.net/
>
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 NetBehaviour mailing list
>                 NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>                 <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>                 http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>
>             _______________________________________________
>             NetBehaviour mailing list
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>             <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>             http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>         -- 
>         P Thayer, Artist
>         http://pallthayer.dyndns.org
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         NetBehaviour mailing list
>         NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>         <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
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>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>
>     *26 09 14h* /vivre entre – from estranger to e-stranger/, une
>     *conférence performée
>     festival Magdalena, * La Bulle Bleue
>     <http://www.labullebleue.fr/#%21/magdalenaproject>, 285 rue du Mas
>     de Prunet, Montpellier
>     aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/
>     <https://aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/>/*
>     */
>
>     /*besides, *
>     /online performances *On Object Agency *
>     with Martina Ruhsam
>     *archives* (text, script, video, images)*/
>     /*bram.org/besides/ <http://bram.org/besides/>
>
>     *Marc Garrett* interviewed me for the *Choose Your Muse* series on
>     *Furtherfield*
>     furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams
>     <http://www.furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams>
>
>
>     */
>     /*
>
>     _______________________________________________ NetBehaviour
>     mailing list NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>     <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>     http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     NetBehaviour mailing list
>     NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>     http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>
>
>
> -- 
>
> *26 09 14h* /vivre entre – from estranger to e-stranger/, une 
> *conférence performée
> festival Magdalena, * La Bulle Bleue 
> <http://www.labullebleue.fr/#%21/magdalenaproject>, 285 rue du Mas de 
> Prunet, Montpellier
> aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/ 
> <https://aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/>/*
> */
>
> /*besides, *
> /online performances *On Object Agency *
> with Martina Ruhsam
> *archives* (text, script, video, images)*/
> /*bram.org/besides/ <http://bram.org/besides/>
>
> *Marc Garrett* interviewed me for the *Choose Your Muse* series on 
> *Furtherfield*
> furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams 
> <http://www.furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams> 
>
>
> */
> /*
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NetBehaviour mailing list
> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour


-- 
Co-founder Co-director
Furtherfield

www.furtherfield.org

+44 (0) 77370 02879
Meeting calendar - http://bit.ly/1NgeLce
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Furtherfield is the UK's leading organisation for art shows, labs, & 
debates
around critical questions in art and technology, since 1997

Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee
registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205.
Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade, 
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