[NetBehaviour] An interview with Geert Lovink

Annie Abrahams bram.org at gmail.com
Thu Oct 1 12:17:17 CEST 2015


Dear Ruth

I am very happy with your reaction
I volunteer

and i'll think more about the rest of your mail and reply to that later

Annie

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 11:21 AM, ruth catlow <ruth.catlow at furtherfield.org>
wrote:

> Dear Annie,
>
> You have thrown the cat amongst the pigeons of my mind!
>
> Of course!
>
> All the time I think - what makes Furtherfield/Netbehaviour super-special
> is this link between what happens in the experiments and conversations
> between us all here on the list, and in the physical places in the
> Furtherfield park venues (and on tour).
>
> The work done by our avant-art-tech networks and communities prompts
> wonderful (I find them wonderful) encounters, activities and conversations
> with park users, local residents (from every country- perhaps- in the
> world) and exhibition visitors (local and international).
>
> But I too have had a feeling of un-ease about a disconnect with the
> conversations that happen here on the list. This list is one of my
> favourite places, and yet I find it hard to advocate for it, to people who
> are not already here. Perhaps because email has now acquired toxic
> associations for many people because of the demands it places on
> 'immaterial labourers'.
>
> I have a couple of thoughts about what we might do.
>
> Firstly- a Netbehaviour subscriber could volunteer to host, here on the
> list, any of the following people
>
>    - artists in our upcoming show,
>    - a recent student placement student,
>    - any member of our regular (overworked) staff-team.
>
> I would invite them to join us as our guest, to talk about their work,
> contribution and experience with Furtherfield. As a host you would be
> responsible for making them feel welcome here and helping them (by mailing
> with them in private) to negotiate conversations if they were to get
> spikey: )
>
> Secondly
>
> If there is an appetite amongst netbehaviourists for more sharing of
> Furtherfield process, it would be easy (and pleasurable, and useful, and
> actually quite a relief) to open up and share some of the things happening
> 'on the ground'. As long as people could tolerate incompleteness (we have
> to take care not invade the privacy of collaborators and partners),
> contradiction (I have an unruly mind), and the occasional indefensible
> statement (we work it out as we go) along the way.
>
> To give you a taste of what kinds of topics these might touch on let me
> start with a brain dump of the possible [Netbehaviour] Subject Headers
> about Furtherfield process.
>
>
>    - DAOWO preparation excitement!
>       - see here http://www.furtherfield.org/artdatamoney/debate/
>
>       - Reflections on attempting to maintain critical and politically
>    astute art processes - without being po-faced and elitist.
>
>    - Installing work by [insert the names here of every artist in
>    Furtherfield's upcoming exhibition The Human Face of Cryptoeconomies
>    http://bit.ly/1VrLivJ ] at Furtherfield Gallery.
>
>    - Calculations, tactics and strategies for dealing with Furtherfield
>    finances
>       - Talking to businesspeople (lots of odd feelings!) and how Jeremy
>       Corbyn is helping
>
>       - Summer at the Museum of Contemporary Commodities - open
>    participatory process - an extreme sport.
>       - pictures here
>       https://www.flickr.com/photos/http_gallery/sets/72157656437894006
>
>       - Why Furtherfield Commons has had no landline for 3 months
>       - (How BT handed over our line to another service provider without
>       our agreement and then wouldn't get it back)
>
>       - Preparations for an upcoming street programme 'The People's Magna
>    Carta' at Frequency Festival in Lincoln.
>
>
>    - The Furtherfield website - opening up to noobs and improving
>    diversity of participants
>    - 7 placement students make themselves heard (it's all a bit tricky!)
>
>       - Seeds of a plan for an experimental innovation lab for values
>    based economies
>       - The Oslo Innovation Manual (apparently the role of arts, design
>       and culture go unaccounted for)
>
>       - How blockchain is redolent with the decentralised distributed
>    promise of the early web
>    - How we're not falling for the utopian promise of blockchain - but
>       skippy with excitement nevertheless!
>
>       - What 7 placement students said about their Summers with
>    Furtherfield
>
>    - How we are thinking about expanding outward and upward (and inward)
>    at the gallery/lab in the park and
>
> Finally...
>
> Thanks to Geert (see subject header) for carrying out this in depth
> experiment with the Netbehaviour subscribers; )
> and to Annie for investigating the cause of that sourness; )
>
>
> What do you reckon???
> Tell us, we'll do something!!!
>
> respect due!
> Ruth
>
>
> On 30/09/15 22:11, Annie Abrahams wrote:
>
> hi Randall,
>
> I am not necesarrily asking for more, better media, for more livelyness, I
> am not sure I want more ...
> I would like a content re-de-placement, more of the processes going on
> (artistic and organisational) and les about results and "look what I have
> done" I would like that there would be more slowness, more attention, more
> time for open reflexion on what has been done, less representation and for
> now i see that still more in the mailinglist than on the social media. I
> think we should reinvent reinvest mailinglists! Netbehaviour first of all.
>
> see you
> Annie
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 5:44 PM, Randall Packer <rpacker at zakros.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I’m not sure where to set into this thread, which has become
>> multi-threaded in all sorts of interesting directions.
>>
>> Regarding Geert: without going into a complete analysis, it’s not clear
>> to me that he is aware of the many museums in the US and the around the
>> world that are employing social media and what is called “user-generated
>> content” in all sorts of compelling ways that invite engagement and social
>> change. I have taught courses in the Johns Hopkins University Museum
>> Studies program where the students are deeply involved with museum-based
>> social and “visitor engagement,” to use another museum term. I believe the
>> interview does have a few absolutes that have not been thoroughly
>> researched, although I have the utmost respect for Geert and his critique
>> of corporate-based social media: it’s just not fair to museums that are
>> making striking progress, and of course the many alternative arts
>> organizations, maker-faires, and hack-a-thons around the world that are
>> incorporating socially-based forms of art and science.
>>
>> Regarding Annie’s concern for place: I agree, we need the means of
>> interaction that while remote, give us a more real-time, visual, media-rich
>> form of interaction and engagement. I enjoy the ease and simplicity of an
>> email list, but there are times you want to see faces, hear voices, trade
>> gestures, communicate with sound, all of which is near impossible in this
>> medium as a live experience. There is no replacing the live: we need to
>> embed the real-time into our networked interactions, which for many of us
>> here has been at the heart of our artistic work and research. We are all
>> nodes on a network, and we need to find ways to engage forms of live
>> connectivity that are as easy as sending an email.
>>
>> Randall
>> From: <netbehaviour-bounces at netbehaviour.org> on behalf of Annie Abrahams
>> Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
>> Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 10:55 AM
>> To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
>> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] An interview with Geert Lovink
>>
>> I have been to a shop to buy some coffee beans and while riding my bike,
>> I thought : wasn't I a bit nasty to furtherfield/netbehaviour? When back I
>> found some reactions that reassured me, but
>> I had been thinking that somehow I was a bit sour on
>> furtherfield/netbehaviour and I asked myself why, what would you like to be
>> different, to change?
>> A small idea popped up : I miss the connexion between furtherfield live
>> in the park (where I imagine a lot of the work is happening) and
>> furtherfield online - especially netbehaviour. Of course there are the
>> announcements, info on the works showed of people I know online, but I miss
>> thoughts by these actual artists who showed, worked with the real place on
>> what is going on, on how the relation is constructed, of what their work
>> does when place in a gallery place. I miss personal stories on this on
>> netbehaviour.
>>
>> xxx
>> Annie
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 4:39 PM, Pall Thayer <pallthay at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Fascinating read. On gallery and museum embrace of post-internet art, I
>>> think there are two things going on. First of all, it's new and it's
>>> acceptance in galleries and museums is probably not much greater than
>>> internet art's acceptance was when it was new. Second of all, most of it
>>> takes forms which galleries and museums are familiar with, i.e. physical
>>> objects, prints, videos, etc. This is a far more attractive fit for
>>> commercial art galleries and doesn't pose any significant archiving issues
>>> for museums. At least, not ones that they haven't encountered before.
>>>
>>> Pall
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 10:26 AM marc garrett <marc.garrett2 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Paul, Dave, Annie & all,
>>>>
>>>> Regarding Geert's interview -- I actually agree with most of what he
>>>> says. In fact, I tend to agree with most of his ideas and writings.
>>>>
>>>> I think as a group, we're in tune (usually coincidentally with his
>>>> reflections) but, living through them within a grounded context, which is
>>>> of our everyday life experience and as part of surviving as an artist led
>>>> group in a neoliberalist dominated culture.
>>>>
>>>> The audience he's talking to is an e-flux audience, and I think e-flux
>>>> are part of an neoliberalist, elite establishment, so it's positive he is
>>>> discussing these issues to its audience.
>>>>
>>>> Although, Paul has mentioned already things have been getting better
>>>> and there is evidence of things gettign better. I would say that's true in
>>>> some ways, but it may also be true that some of us have got older and into
>>>> power and so able to support media art and net art more these days. And
>>>> before this was not the case ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Wishing you well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> marc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 30 September 2015 at 14:07, Paul Hertz <ignotus at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well, happy to post polemics, it's a kind of a hobby. :^}.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there has been a tendency for mainstream curators to approach
>>>>> more recent digitally-mediated works as if they were in effect a sort of
>>>>> hybrid old media, while still neglecting both historical and current "pure"
>>>>> digital media. This has meant that certain kinds of digital hard copy
>>>>> (modded photographic prints, collage and drawings, and even 3D printing ==
>>>>> "post-digital") can be welcomed while the internet as a platform is
>>>>> generally ignored. I don't have any more evidence for this than
>>>>> observation, and I have felt that the situation for digital art was
>>>>> improving over the last ten years. OTOH, I can readily understand the
>>>>> impatience.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 7:56 AM, dave miller <dave.miller.uk at gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think Geert is probably correct though - seems to me the art
>>>>>> "establishment" aren't interested in internet/ digital art, though maybe
>>>>>> they have a different view of it from us on here.  The art world remains a
>>>>>> mystery to me, so I may well be wrong. Thank god for Furtherfield, and I
>>>>>> would love to know who are the curators 'not' scared of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's the ‘post-digital’ bandwagon?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 30 September 2015 at 13:48, Annie Abrahams <bram.org at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> don't be small, don't think sectarism
>>>>>>> Geert is closer to "us" than most "others"
>>>>>>> get in contact with him, explain and connect, use his critical energy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> invite him to curate, to build, to discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> xxx
>>>>>>> Annie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 2:40 PM, NIKOS V <nikos.vv at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I see the relevance in this approach, allthough  I have to say its
>>>>>>>> allready to late for that criticism no?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Moreover, is he really interested in art?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If yes, as Marc says, where are the references and the names ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And why is Venice Biennial important?To whom????
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2015-09-30 15:36 GMT+03:00 marc.garrett <
>>>>>>>> marc.garrett at furtherfield.org>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Paul,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Geert needs to be more specific and highlight the curators who are
>>>>>>>>> 'not' scared and who have been showing technical artwork such as
>>>>>>>>> Furtherifeld & others - his words are not grounded and are too absolute,
>>>>>>>>> they do not reflect reality...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> marc
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://conversations.e-flux.com/t/geert-lovink-on-social-media-and-the-arts/2581
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "The absence at the 2015 Venice Bienale of digital arts and
>>>>>>>>> internet works says it all. Curators are afraid to admit they are clueless
>>>>>>>>> and continue their ignorant attitude towards art that deals with the
>>>>>>>>> digital in a direct matter (while checking their smart phone). Everyone
>>>>>>>>> jumps on the ‘post-digital’ bandwagon because that’s cute and safe. [...]
>>>>>>>>> Curators and critics are more than happy to embrace the race, gender, even
>>>>>>>>> the anthroposcene (whatever that is), but are blind for the techno-politics
>>>>>>>>> of the equipment and media they are using themselves so intensely. The
>>>>>>>>> contradictions are becoming absurd. Video was the last technology they had
>>>>>>>>> to deal with, but then it stopped."
>>>>>>>>> — Geert Lovink
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> //
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> enjoy,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- Paul
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> -----   |(*,+,#,=)(#,=,*,+)(=,#,+,*)(+,*,=,#)|   ---
>>>>>>>>> http://paulhertz.net/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NetBehaviour mailing listNetBehaviour at netbehaviour.orghttp://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>>>>>>>>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>>>>>>>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *26 09 14h*  *vivre entre – from estranger to e-stranger*, une
>>>>>>> *conférence performée festival Magdalena, * La Bulle Bleue
>>>>>>> <http://www.labullebleue.fr/#%21/magdalenaproject>, 285 rue du Mas
>>>>>>> de Prunet, Montpellier
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *besides, *online performances *On Object Agency *
>>>>>>> with Martina Ruhsam
>>>>>>> *archives* (text, script, video, images)
>>>>>>> bram.org/besides/
>>>>>>> *Marc Garrett* interviewed me for the *Choose Your Muse* series on
>>>>>>> *Furtherfield*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams
>>>>>>> <http://www.furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>>>>>>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>>>>>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>>>>>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>>>>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> -----   |(*,+,#,=)(#,=,*,+)(=,#,+,*)(+,*,=,#)|   ---
>>>>> http://paulhertz.net/
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>>>>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>>>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>>>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>>>
>>> --
>>> P Thayer, Artist
>>> http://pallthayer.dyndns.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *26 09 14h*  *vivre entre – from estranger to e-stranger*, une
>> *conférence performée festival Magdalena, * La Bulle Bleue
>> <http://www.labullebleue.fr/#%21/magdalenaproject>, 285 rue du Mas de
>> Prunet, Montpellier
>>
>> aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/
>>
>>
>> *besides, *online performances *On Object Agency *
>> with Martina Ruhsam
>> *archives* (text, script, video, images)
>> bram.org/besides/
>> *Marc Garrett* interviewed me for the *Choose Your Muse* series on
>> *Furtherfield*
>>
>> furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams
>> <http://www.furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ NetBehaviour mailing list
>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *26 09 14h*  *vivre entre – from estranger to e-stranger*, une
> *conférence performée festival Magdalena, * La Bulle Bleue
> <http://www.labullebleue.fr/#%21/magdalenaproject>, 285 rue du Mas de
> Prunet, Montpellier
>
> aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/
>
>
> *besides, *online performances *On Object Agency *
> with Martina Ruhsam
> *archives* (text, script, video, images)
> bram.org/besides/
> *Marc Garrett* interviewed me for the *Choose Your Muse* series on
> *Furtherfield*
>
> furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams
> <http://www.furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NetBehaviour mailing listNetBehaviour at netbehaviour.orghttp://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>
>
> --
> Co-founder Co-director
> Furtherfield
>
> www.furtherfield.org
>
> +44 (0) 77370 02879
> Meeting calendar - http://bit.ly/1NgeLce
> Bitcoin Address 197BBaXa6M9PtHhhNTQkuHh1pVJA8RrJ2i
>
> Furtherfield is the UK's leading organisation for art shows, labs, &
> debates
> around critical questions in art and technology, since 1997
>
> Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee
> registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205.
> Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade,
> Tally Ho Corner, London N12 0EH.
>



-- 

*26 09 14h*  *vivre entre – from estranger to e-stranger*, une
*conférence performéefestival Magdalena, * La Bulle Bleue
<http://www.labullebleue.fr/#%21/magdalenaproject>, 285 rue du Mas de
Prunet, Montpellier
aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/


*besides, *online performances *On Object Agency *
with Martina Ruhsam
*archives* (text, script, video, images)
bram.org/besides/
*Marc Garrett* interviewed me for the *Choose Your Muse* series on
*Furtherfield*
furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams
<http://www.furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams>
<https://aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/08/13/ed-atkins-remediating/>


<http://turbulence.org/commissions/besides/>
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