[NetBehaviour] An interview with Geert Lovink

Thu Oct 1 14:42:20 CEST 2015

Ruth, that’s the first time I have heard you articulate the high-importance of the relationship and intersection between the physical Furtherfield venues with the virtual networked spaces of the list, etc. This cross-pollination between the local and the remote seems to always be the great challenge of networked projects and their communities, but also one of the most interesting. The question and solutions you raise are compelling: to create a dialogue across this divide, creating third space social engagement between the two. How do to this with a text-based email list is an even greater challenge, so I think having those who are on the ground in the park, or at least actively involved in what is happening there, should be hosting conversations on the list: reportage from the Furtherfield gallery. I wonder also if it is possible for visitors in the gallery to participate here, though that seems more appropriate for social media. When we created multiple channels for NetArtizens, that presented a good distribution solution, especially when there was cross-referencing between Twitter and NetBehaviour. Personally, I think it is interesting to think about all the various channels we use as a wholistic activity, because in a sense, they all seem to blend together with a lot of the same participants, for example Marc’s Facebook postings with this list. You bring up some crucial networked issues in terms of engaging virtual communities, the key question being how to bridge those virtual communities with physical social spaces. 

From:  <netbehaviour-bounces at netbehaviour.org> on behalf of ruth catlow
Reply-To:  NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
Date:  Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 5:21 AM
To:  <netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org>, <bram.org at gmail.com>
Subject:  Re: [NetBehaviour] An interview with Geert Lovink

Dear Annie,

 You have thrown the cat amongst the pigeons of my mind!

 Of course!

 All the time I think - what makes Furtherfield/Netbehaviour super-special is this link between what happens in the experiments and conversations between us all here on the list, and in the physical places in the Furtherfield park venues (and on tour). 

 The work done by our avant-art-tech networks and communities prompts wonderful (I find them wonderful) encounters, activities and conversations with park users, local residents (from every country- perhaps- in the world) and exhibition visitors (local and international).

 But I too have had a feeling of un-ease about a disconnect with the conversations that happen here on the list. This list is one of my favourite places, and yet I find it hard to advocate for it, to people who are not already here. Perhaps because email has now acquired toxic associations for many people because of the demands it places on 'immaterial labourers'.

 I have a couple of thoughts about what we might do.

 Firstly- a Netbehaviour subscriber could volunteer to host, here on the list, any of the following people

artists in our upcoming show, 
a recent student placement student, 
any member of our regular (overworked) staff-team.  
I would invite them to join us as our guest, to talk about their work, contribution and experience with Furtherfield. As a host you would be responsible for making them feel welcome here and helping them (by mailing with them in private) to negotiate conversations if they were to get spikey: ) 

 Secondly

 If there is an appetite amongst netbehaviourists for more sharing of Furtherfield process, it would be easy (and pleasurable, and useful, and actually quite a relief) to open up and share some of the things happening 'on the ground'. As long as people could tolerate incompleteness (we have to take care not invade the privacy of collaborators and partners), contradiction (I have an unruly mind), and the occasional indefensible statement (we work it out as we go) along the way.

 To give you a taste of what kinds of topics these might touch on let me start with a brain dump of the possible [Netbehaviour] Subject Headers about Furtherfield process.

DAOWO preparation excitement! 
see here http://www.furtherfield.org/artdatamoney/debate/

Reflections on attempting to maintain critical and politically astute art processes - without being po-faced and elitist.

Installing work by [insert the names here of every artist in Furtherfield's upcoming exhibition The Human Face of Cryptoeconomies http://bit.ly/1VrLivJ ] at Furtherfield Gallery.

Calculations, tactics and strategies for dealing with Furtherfield finances 
Talking to businesspeople (lots of odd feelings!) and how Jeremy Corbyn is helping

Summer at the Museum of Contemporary Commodities - open participatory process - an extreme sport. 
pictures here https://www.flickr.com/photos/http_gallery/sets/72157656437894006

Why Furtherfield Commons has had no landline for 3 months 
 (How BT handed over our line to another service provider without our agreement and then wouldn't get it back)

Preparations for an upcoming street programme 'The People's Magna Carta' at Frequency Festival in Lincoln.

The Furtherfield website - opening up to noobs and improving diversity of participants

7 placement students make themselves heard (it's all a bit tricky!)

Seeds of a plan for an experimental innovation lab for values based economies 
The Oslo Innovation Manual (apparently the role of arts, design and culture go unaccounted for)

How blockchain is redolent with the decentralised distributed promise of the early web 

How we're not falling for the utopian promise of blockchain - but skippy with excitement nevertheless!

What 7 placement students said about their Summers with Furtherfield

How we are thinking about expanding outward and upward (and inward) at the gallery/lab in the park and 

Finally...

 Thanks to Geert (see subject header) for carrying out this in depth experiment with the Netbehaviour subscribers; )
 and to Annie for investigating the cause of that sourness; )

 What do you reckon???
 Tell us, we'll do something!!!

 respect due!
 Ruth

 On 30/09/15 22:11, Annie Abrahams wrote:

hi Randall,

 I am not necesarrily asking for more, better media, for more livelyness, I am not sure I want more ...

 I would like a content re-de-placement, more of the processes going on (artistic and organisational) and les about results and "look what I have done" I would like that there would be more slowness, more attention, more time for open reflexion on what has been done, less representation and for now i see that still more in the mailinglist than on the social media. I think we should reinvent reinvest mailinglists! Netbehaviour first of all.

 see you

 Annie

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 5:44 PM, Randall Packer <rpacker at zakros.com> wrote:

I’m not sure where to set into this thread, which has become multi-threaded in all sorts of interesting directions. 

Regarding Geert: without going into a complete analysis, it’s not clear to me that he is aware of the many museums in the US and the around the world that are employing social media and what is called “user-generated content” in all sorts of compelling ways that invite engagement and social change. I have taught courses in the Johns Hopkins University Museum Studies program where the students are deeply involved with museum-based social and “visitor engagement,” to use another museum term. I believe the interview does have a few absolutes that have not been thoroughly researched, although I have the utmost respect for Geert and his critique of corporate-based social media: it’s just not fair to museums that are making striking progress, and of course the many alternative arts organizations, maker-faires, and hack-a-thons around the world that are incorporating socially-based forms of art and science. 

Regarding Annie’s concern for place: I agree, we need the means of interaction that while remote, give us a more real-time, visual, media-rich form of interaction and engagement. I enjoy the ease and simplicity of an email list, but there are times you want to see faces, hear voices, trade gestures, communicate with sound, all of which is near impossible in this medium as a live experience. There is no replacing the live: we need to embed the real-time into our networked interactions, which for many of us here has been at the heart of our artistic work and research. We are all nodes on a network, and we need to find ways to engage forms of live connectivity that are as easy as sending an email. 

Randall

From:  <netbehaviour-bounces at netbehaviour.org> on behalf of Annie Abrahams
 Reply-To:  NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
 Date:  Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 10:55 AM
 To:  NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
 Subject:  Re: [NetBehaviour] An interview with Geert Lovink

I have been to a shop to buy some coffee beans and while riding my bike, I thought : wasn't I a bit nasty to furtherfield/netbehaviour? When back I found some reactions that reassured me, but

 I had been thinking that somehow I was a bit sour on furtherfield/netbehaviour and I asked myself why, what would you like to be different, to change?

 A small idea popped up : I miss the connexion between furtherfield live in the park (where I imagine a lot of the work is happening) and furtherfield online - especially netbehaviour. Of course there are the announcements, info on the works showed of people I know online, but I miss thoughts by these actual artists who showed, worked with the real place on what is going on, on how the relation is constructed, of what their work does when place in a gallery place. I miss personal stories on this on netbehaviour.

 xxx

 Annie

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 4:39 PM, Pall Thayer <pallthay at gmail.com> wrote:

Fascinating read. On gallery and museum embrace of post-internet art, I think there are two things going on. First of all, it's new and it's acceptance in galleries and museums is probably not much greater than internet art's acceptance was when it was new. Second of all, most of it takes forms which galleries and museums are familiar with, i.e. physical objects, prints, videos, etc. This is a far more attractive fit for commercial art galleries and doesn't pose any significant archiving issues for museums. At least, not ones that they haven't encountered before. 

Pall

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 10:26 AM marc garrett <marc.garrett2 at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Paul, Dave, Annie & all,

 Regarding Geert's interview -- I actually agree with most of what he says. In fact, I tend to agree with most of his ideas and writings. 

 I think as a group, we're in tune (usually coincidentally with his reflections) but, living through them within a grounded context, which is of our everyday life experience and as part of surviving as an artist led group in a neoliberalist dominated culture.

 The audience he's talking to is an e-flux audience, and I think e-flux are part of an neoliberalist, elite establishment, so it's positive he is discussing these issues to its audience. 

 Although, Paul has mentioned already things have been getting better and there is evidence of things gettign better. I would say that's true in some ways, but it may also be true that some of us have got older and into power and so able to support media art and net art more these days. And before this was not the case ;-)

 Wishing you well.

 marc

On 30 September 2015 at 14:07, Paul Hertz <ignotus at gmail.com> wrote:

Well, happy to post polemics, it's a kind of a hobby. :^}. 

I think there has been a tendency for mainstream curators to approach more recent digitally-mediated works as if they were in effect a sort of hybrid old media, while still neglecting both historical and current "pure" digital media. This has meant that certain kinds of digital hard copy (modded photographic prints, collage and drawings, and even 3D printing == "post-digital") can be welcomed while the internet as a platform is generally ignored. I don't have any more evidence for this than observation, and I have felt that the situation for digital art was improving over the last ten years. OTOH, I can readily understand the impatience.

-- Paul

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 7:56 AM, dave miller <dave.miller.uk at gmail.com> wrote:

I think Geert is probably correct though - seems to me the art "establishment" aren't interested in internet/ digital art, though maybe they have a different view of it from us on here.  The art world remains a mystery to me, so I may well be wrong. Thank god for Furtherfield, and I would love to know who are the curators 'not' scared of it. 

What's the ‘post-digital’ bandwagon?

Dave

On 30 September 2015 at 13:48, Annie Abrahams <bram.org at gmail.com> wrote:

don't be small, don't think sectarism

 Geert is closer to "us" than most "others"

 get in contact with him, explain and connect, use his critical energy

 invite him to curate, to build, to discuss

 xxx

Annie

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 2:40 PM, NIKOS V <nikos.vv at gmail.com> wrote:

I see the relevance in this approach, allthough  I have to say its allready to late for that criticism no? 

Moreover, is he really interested in art? 

If yes, as Marc says, where are the references and the names ?

And why is Venice Biennial important?To whom????

2015-09-30 15:36 GMT+03:00 marc.garrett <marc.garrett at furtherfield.org>:

 Hi Paul,

 Geert needs to be more specific and highlight the curators who are 'not' scared and who have been showing technical artwork such as Furtherifeld & others - his words are not grounded and are too absolute, they do not reflect reality...

 marc

http://conversations.e-flux.com/t/geert-lovink-on-social-media-and-the-arts/2581 

"The absence at the 2015 Venice Bienale of digital arts and internet works says it all. Curators are afraid to admit they are clueless and continue their ignorant attitude towards art that deals with the digital in a direct matter (while checking their smart phone). Everyone jumps on the ‘post-digital’ bandwagon because that’s cute and safe. [...] Curators and critics are more than happy to embrace the race, gender, even the anthroposcene (whatever that is), but are blind for the techno-politics of the equipment and media they are using themselves so intensely. The contradictions are becoming absurd. Video was the last technology they had to deal with, but then it stopped."

— Geert Lovink

//

enjoy, 

-- Paul

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26 09 14h  vivre entre – from estranger to e-stranger, une conférence performée
 festival Magdalena,  La Bulle Bleue, 285 rue du Mas de Prunet, Montpellier
 aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/

besides, 
 online performances On Object Agency 
 with Martina Ruhsam
 archives (text, script, video, images)
 bram.org/besides/
 Marc Garrett interviewed me for the Choose Your Muse series on Furtherfield
 furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams 

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 NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
 http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour

 -- 

-----   |(*,+,#,=)(#,=,*,+)(=,#,+,*)(+,*,=,#)|   ---
 http://paulhertz.net/

_______________________________________________
 NetBehaviour mailing list
 NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
 http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour

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 NetBehaviour mailing list
 NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
 http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour

-- 

P Thayer, Artist
 http://pallthayer.dyndns.org

_______________________________________________
 NetBehaviour mailing list
 NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
 http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour

 -- 

26 09 14h  vivre entre – from estranger to e-stranger, une conférence performée
 festival Magdalena,  La Bulle Bleue, 285 rue du Mas de Prunet, Montpellier
 aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/

besides, 
 online performances On Object Agency 
 with Martina Ruhsam
 archives (text, script, video, images)
 bram.org/besides/
 Marc Garrett interviewed me for the Choose Your Muse series on Furtherfield
 furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams 

 _______________________________________________ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour

 _______________________________________________
 NetBehaviour mailing list
 NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
 http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour

 -- 

26 09 14h  vivre entre – from estranger to e-stranger, une conférence performée
 festival Magdalena,  La Bulle Bleue, 285 rue du Mas de Prunet, Montpellier
 aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/

besides, 
 online performances On Object Agency 
 with Martina Ruhsam
 archives (text, script, video, images)
 bram.org/besides/
 Marc Garrett interviewed me for the Choose Your Muse series on Furtherfield
 furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams 

_______________________________________________
NetBehaviour mailing list
NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.orghttp://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour

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 www.furtherfield.org

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 Meeting calendar - http://bit.ly/1NgeLce 
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