[NetBehaviour] An interview with Geert Lovink
ruth catlow
ruth.catlow at furtherfield.org
Thu Oct 1 20:04:29 CEST 2015
Thanks Annie and Randall,
for offers to host and for your ideas and reflections.
The idea of asking a gallery visitor to join a discussion on
Netbehaviour is provoking!
I look forward to hearing more from you Annie: )
Randall,I'd also like to comment on something you wrote in an earlier mail :
"it’s not clear to me that he is aware of the many museums in the US and
the around the world that are employing social media and what is called
“user-generated content” in all sorts of compelling ways that invite
engagement and social change. "
I think that what is under discussion here is digital art or media art
that prompts a more critical reflection about digital tools and
technology- and considers how they influence and change mass behaviours
and society and power etc. I think this goes beyond 'engagement'. This
is not to dismiss the work that you describe- just to distinguish.
Ruth
On 01/10/15 13:42, Randall Packer wrote:
> Ruth, that’s the first time I have heard you articulate the
> high-importance of the relationship and intersection between the
> physical Furtherfield venues with the virtual networked spaces of the
> list, etc. This cross-pollination between the local and the remote
> seems to always be the great challenge of networked projects and their
> communities, but also one of the most interesting. The question and
> solutions you raise are compelling: to create a dialogue across this
> divide, creating third space social engagement between the two. How do
> to this with a text-based email list is an even greater challenge, so
> I think having those who are on the ground in the park, or at least
> actively involved in what is happening there, should be hosting
> conversations on the list: reportage from the Furtherfield gallery. I
> wonder also if it is possible for visitors in the gallery to
> participate here, though that seems more appropriate for social media.
> When we created multiple channels for NetArtizens, that presented a
> good distribution solution, especially when there was
> cross-referencing between Twitter and NetBehaviour. Personally, I
> think it is interesting to think about all the various channels we use
> as a wholistic activity, because in a sense, they all seem to blend
> together with a lot of the same participants, for example Marc’s
> Facebook postings with this list. You bring up some crucial networked
> issues in terms of engaging virtual communities, the key question
> being how to bridge those virtual communities with physical social
> spaces.
>
> From: <netbehaviour-bounces at netbehaviour.org
> <mailto:netbehaviour-bounces at netbehaviour.org>> on behalf of ruth catlow
> Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
> Date: Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 5:21 AM
> To: <netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org
> <mailto:netbehaviour at netbehaviour.org>>, <bram.org at gmail.com
> <mailto:bram.org at gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] An interview with Geert Lovink
>
> Dear Annie,
>
> You have thrown the cat amongst the pigeons of my mind!
>
> Of course!
>
> All the time I think - what makes Furtherfield/Netbehaviour
> super-special is this link between what happens in the experiments and
> conversations between us all here on the list, and in the physical
> places in the Furtherfield park venues (and on tour).
>
> The work done by our avant-art-tech networks and communities prompts
> wonderful (I find them wonderful) encounters, activities and
> conversations with park users, local residents (from every country-
> perhaps- in the world) and exhibition visitors (local and international).
>
> But I too have had a feeling of un-ease about a disconnect with the
> conversations that happen here on the list. This list is one of my
> favourite places, and yet I find it hard to advocate for it, to people
> who are not already here. Perhaps because email has now acquired toxic
> associations for many people because of the demands it places on
> 'immaterial labourers'.
>
> I have a couple of thoughts about what we might do.
>
> Firstly- a Netbehaviour subscriber could volunteer to host, here on
> the list, any of the following people
>
> * artists in our upcoming show,
> * a recent student placement student,
> * any member of our regular (overworked) staff-team.
>
> I would invite them to join us as our guest, to talk about their work,
> contribution and experience with Furtherfield. As a host you would be
> responsible for making them feel welcome here and helping them (by
> mailing with them in private) to negotiate conversations if they were
> to get spikey: )
>
> Secondly
>
> If there is an appetite amongst netbehaviourists for more sharing of
> Furtherfield process, it would be easy (and pleasurable, and useful,
> and actually quite a relief) to open up and share some of the things
> happening 'on the ground'. As long as people could tolerate
> incompleteness (we have to take care not invade the privacy of
> collaborators and partners), contradiction (I have an unruly mind),
> and the occasional indefensible statement (we work it out as we go)
> along the way.
>
> To give you a taste of what kinds of topics these might touch on let
> me start with a brain dump of the possible [Netbehaviour] Subject
> Headers about Furtherfield process.
>
> * DAOWO preparation excitement!
> o see here http://www.furtherfield.org/artdatamoney/debate/
>
> * Reflections on attempting to maintain critical and politically
> astute art processes - without being po-faced and elitist.
>
> * Installing work by [insert the names here of every artist in
> Furtherfield's upcoming exhibition The Human Face of
> Cryptoeconomies http://bit.ly/1VrLivJ ] at Furtherfield Gallery.
>
> * Calculations, tactics and strategies for dealing with Furtherfield
> finances
> o Talking to businesspeople (lots of odd feelings!) and how
> Jeremy Corbyn is helping
>
> * Summer at the Museum of Contemporary Commodities - open
> participatory process - an extreme sport.
> o pictures here
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/http_gallery/sets/72157656437894006
>
> * Why Furtherfield Commons has had no landline for 3 months
> o (How BT handed over our line to another service provider
> without our agreement and then wouldn't get it back)
>
> * Preparations for an upcoming street programme 'The People's Magna
> Carta' at Frequency Festival in Lincoln.
>
> * The Furtherfield website - opening up to noobs and improving
> diversity of participants
> o 7 placement students make themselves heard (it's all a bit
> tricky!)
>
> * Seeds of a plan for an experimental innovation lab for values
> based economies
> o The Oslo Innovation Manual (apparently the role of arts,
> design and culture go unaccounted for)
>
> * How blockchain is redolent with the decentralised distributed
> promise of the early web
> o How we're not falling for the utopian promise of blockchain -
> but skippy with excitement nevertheless!
>
> * What 7 placement students said about their Summers with Furtherfield
>
> * How we are thinking about expanding outward and upward (and
> inward) at the gallery/lab in the park and
>
> Finally...
>
> Thanks to Geert (see subject header) for carrying out this in depth
> experiment with the Netbehaviour subscribers; )
> and to Annie for investigating the cause of that sourness; )
>
>
> What do you reckon???
> Tell us, we'll do something!!!
>
> respect due!
> Ruth
>
> On 30/09/15 22:11, Annie Abrahams wrote:
>> hi Randall,
>>
>> I am not necesarrily asking for more, better media, for more
>> livelyness, I am not sure I want more ...
>> I would like a content re-de-placement, more of the processes going
>> on (artistic and organisational) and les about results and "look what
>> I have done" I would like that there would be more slowness, more
>> attention, more time for open reflexion on what has been done, less
>> representation and for now i see that still more in the mailinglist
>> than on the social media. I think we should reinvent reinvest
>> mailinglists! Netbehaviour first of all.
>>
>> see you
>> Annie
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 5:44 PM, Randall Packer <rpacker at zakros.com
>> <mailto:rpacker at zakros.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I’m not sure where to set into this thread, which has become
>> multi-threaded in all sorts of interesting directions.
>>
>> Regarding Geert: without going into a complete analysis, it’s not
>> clear to me that he is aware of the many museums in the US and
>> the around the world that are employing social media and what is
>> called “user-generated content” in all sorts of compelling ways
>> that invite engagement and social change. I have taught courses
>> in the Johns Hopkins University Museum Studies program where the
>> students are deeply involved with museum-based social and
>> “visitor engagement,” to use another museum term. I believe the
>> interview does have a few absolutes that have not been thoroughly
>> researched, although I have the utmost respect for Geert and his
>> critique of corporate-based social media: it’s just not fair to
>> museums that are making striking progress, and of course the many
>> alternative arts organizations, maker-faires, and hack-a-thons
>> around the world that are incorporating socially-based forms of
>> art and science.
>>
>> Regarding Annie’s concern for place: I agree, we need the means
>> of interaction that while remote, give us a more real-time,
>> visual, media-rich form of interaction and engagement. I enjoy
>> the ease and simplicity of an email list, but there are times you
>> want to see faces, hear voices, trade gestures, communicate with
>> sound, all of which is near impossible in this medium as a live
>> experience. There is no replacing the live: we need to embed the
>> real-time into our networked interactions, which for many of us
>> here has been at the heart of our artistic work and research. We
>> are all nodes on a network, and we need to find ways to engage
>> forms of live connectivity that are as easy as sending an email.
>>
>> Randall
>> From: <netbehaviour-bounces at netbehaviour.org
>> <mailto:netbehaviour-bounces at netbehaviour.org>> on behalf of
>> Annie Abrahams
>> Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
>> Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 10:55 AM
>> To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
>> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] An interview with Geert Lovink
>>
>> I have been to a shop to buy some coffee beans and while riding
>> my bike, I thought : wasn't I a bit nasty to
>> furtherfield/netbehaviour? When back I found some reactions that
>> reassured me, but
>> I had been thinking that somehow I was a bit sour on
>> furtherfield/netbehaviour and I asked myself why, what would you
>> like to be different, to change?
>> A small idea popped up : I miss the connexion between
>> furtherfield live in the park (where I imagine a lot of the work
>> is happening) and furtherfield online - especially netbehaviour.
>> Of course there are the announcements, info on the works showed
>> of people I know online, but I miss thoughts by these actual
>> artists who showed, worked with the real place on what is going
>> on, on how the relation is constructed, of what their work does
>> when place in a gallery place. I miss personal stories on this on
>> netbehaviour.
>>
>> xxx
>> Annie
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 4:39 PM, Pall Thayer <pallthay at gmail.com
>> <mailto:pallthay at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Fascinating read. On gallery and museum embrace of
>> post-internet art, I think there are two things going on.
>> First of all, it's new and it's acceptance in galleries and
>> museums is probably not much greater than internet art's
>> acceptance was when it was new. Second of all, most of it
>> takes forms which galleries and museums are familiar with,
>> i.e. physical objects, prints, videos, etc. This is a far
>> more attractive fit for commercial art galleries and doesn't
>> pose any significant archiving issues for museums. At least,
>> not ones that they haven't encountered before.
>>
>> Pall
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 10:26 AM marc garrett
>> <marc.garrett2 at gmail.com <mailto:marc.garrett2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Paul, Dave, Annie & all,
>>
>> Regarding Geert's interview -- I actually agree with most
>> of what he says. In fact, I tend to agree with most of
>> his ideas and writings.
>>
>> I think as a group, we're in tune (usually coincidentally
>> with his reflections) but, living through them within a
>> grounded context, which is of our everyday life
>> experience and as part of surviving as an artist led
>> group in a neoliberalist dominated culture.
>>
>> The audience he's talking to is an e-flux audience, and I
>> think e-flux are part of an neoliberalist, elite
>> establishment, so it's positive he is discussing these
>> issues to its audience.
>>
>> Although, Paul has mentioned already things have been
>> getting better and there is evidence of things gettign
>> better. I would say that's true in some ways, but it may
>> also be true that some of us have got older and into
>> power and so able to support media art and net art more
>> these days. And before this was not the case ;-)
>>
>> Wishing you well.
>>
>>
>> marc
>>
>>
>> On 30 September 2015 at 14:07, Paul Hertz
>> <ignotus at gmail.com <mailto:ignotus at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Well, happy to post polemics, it's a kind of a hobby.
>> :^}.
>>
>> I think there has been a tendency for mainstream
>> curators to approach more recent digitally-mediated
>> works as if they were in effect a sort of hybrid old
>> media, while still neglecting both historical and
>> current "pure" digital media. This has meant that
>> certain kinds of digital hard copy (modded
>> photographic prints, collage and drawings, and even
>> 3D printing == "post-digital") can be welcomed while
>> the internet as a platform is generally ignored. I
>> don't have any more evidence for this than
>> observation, and I have felt that the situation for
>> digital art was improving over the last ten years.
>> OTOH, I can readily understand the impatience.
>>
>> -- Paul
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 7:56 AM, dave miller
>> <dave.miller.uk at gmail.com
>> <mailto:dave.miller.uk at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I think Geert is probably correct though - seems
>> to me the art "establishment" aren't interested
>> in internet/ digital art, though maybe they have
>> a different view of it from us on here. The art
>> world remains a mystery to me, so I may well be
>> wrong. Thank god for Furtherfield, and I would
>> love to know who are the curators 'not' scared of
>> it.
>>
>> What's the ‘post-digital’ bandwagon?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On 30 September 2015 at 13:48, Annie Abrahams
>> <bram.org at gmail.com <mailto:bram.org at gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> don't be small, don't think sectarism
>> Geert is closer to "us" than most "others"
>> get in contact with him, explain and connect,
>> use his critical energy
>>
>> invite him to curate, to build, to discuss
>>
>> xxx
>> Annie
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 2:40 PM, NIKOS V
>> <nikos.vv at gmail.com
>> <mailto:nikos.vv at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I see the relevance in this approach,
>> allthough I have to say its allready to
>> late for that criticism no?
>>
>> Moreover, is he really interested in art?
>>
>> If yes, as Marc says, where are the
>> references and the names ?
>>
>> And why is Venice Biennial important?To
>> whom????
>>
>> 2015-09-30 15:36 GMT+03:00 marc.garrett
>> <marc.garrett at furtherfield.org
>> <mailto:marc.garrett at furtherfield.org>>:
>>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> Geert needs to be more specific and
>> highlight the curators who are 'not'
>> scared and who have been showing
>> technical artwork such as
>> Furtherifeld & others - his words are
>> not grounded and are too absolute,
>> they do not reflect reality...
>>
>> marc
>>> http://conversations.e-flux.com/t/geert-lovink-on-social-media-and-the-arts/2581
>>>
>>>
>>> "The absence at the 2015 Venice
>>> Bienale of digital arts and internet
>>> works says it all. Curators are
>>> afraid to admit they are clueless
>>> and continue their ignorant attitude
>>> towards art that deals with the
>>> digital in a direct matter (while
>>> checking their smart phone).
>>> Everyone jumps on the ‘post-digital’
>>> bandwagon because that’s cute and
>>> safe. [...] Curators and critics are
>>> more than happy to embrace the race,
>>> gender, even the anthroposcene
>>> (whatever that is), but are blind
>>> for the techno-politics of the
>>> equipment and media they are using
>>> themselves so intensely. The
>>> contradictions are becoming absurd.
>>> Video was the last technology they
>>> had to deal with, but then it stopped."
>>> — Geert Lovink
>>>
>>> //
>>>
>>> enjoy,
>>>
>>> -- Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> -----
>>> |(*,+,#,=)(#,=,*,+)(=,#,+,*)(+,*,=,#)|
>>> ---
>>> http://paulhertz.net/
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NetBehaviour mailing list
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>> <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *26 09 14h* /vivre entre – from estranger to
>> e-stranger/, une *conférence performée
>> festival Magdalena, * La Bulle Bleue
>> <http://www.labullebleue.fr/#%21/magdalenaproject>,
>> 285 rue du Mas de Prunet, Montpellier
>> aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/
>> <https://aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/>/*
>> */
>>
>> /*besides, *
>> /online performances *On Object Agency *
>> with Martina Ruhsam
>> *archives* (text, script, video, images)*/
>> /*bram.org/besides/ <http://bram.org/besides/>
>>
>> *Marc Garrett* interviewed me for the *Choose
>> Your Muse* series on *Furtherfield*
>> furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams
>> <http://www.furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams>
>>
>>
>> */
>> /*
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ----- |(*,+,#,=)(#,=,*,+)(=,#,+,*)(+,*,=,#)| ---
>> http://paulhertz.net/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NetBehaviour mailing list
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>> <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>> --
>> P Thayer, Artist
>> http://pallthayer.dyndns.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>> <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *26 09 14h* /vivre entre – from estranger to e-stranger/, une
>> *conférence performée
>> festival Magdalena, * La Bulle Bleue
>> <http://www.labullebleue.fr/#%21/magdalenaproject>, 285 rue du
>> Mas de Prunet, Montpellier
>> aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/
>> <https://aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/>/*
>> */
>>
>> /*besides, *
>> /online performances *On Object Agency *
>> with Martina Ruhsam
>> *archives* (text, script, video, images)*/
>> /*bram.org/besides/ <http://bram.org/besides/>
>>
>> *Marc Garrett* interviewed me for the *Choose Your Muse* series
>> on *Furtherfield*
>> furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams
>> <http://www.furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams>
>>
>>
>> */
>> /*
>>
>> _______________________________________________ NetBehaviour
>> mailing list NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
>> <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *26 09 14h* /vivre entre – from estranger to e-stranger/, une
>> *conférence performée
>> festival Magdalena, * La Bulle Bleue
>> <http://www.labullebleue.fr/#%21/magdalenaproject>, 285 rue du Mas de
>> Prunet, Montpellier
>> aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/
>> <https://aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/>/*
>> */
>>
>> /*besides, *
>> /online performances *On Object Agency *
>> with Martina Ruhsam
>> *archives* (text, script, video, images)*/
>> /*bram.org/besides/ <http://bram.org/besides/>
>>
>> *Marc Garrett* interviewed me for the *Choose Your Muse* series on
>> *Furtherfield*
>> furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams
>> <http://www.furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams>
>>
>>
>> */
>> /*
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NetBehaviour mailing list
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>
>
> --
> Co-founder Co-director
> Furtherfield
>
> www.furtherfield.org
>
> +44 (0) 77370 02879
> Meeting calendar - http://bit.ly/1NgeLce
> Bitcoin Address 197BBaXa6M9PtHhhNTQkuHh1pVJA8RrJ2i
>
> Furtherfield is the UK's leading organisation for art shows, labs, &
> debates
> around critical questions in art and technology, since 1997
>
> Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee
> registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205.
> Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade,
> Tally Ho Corner, London N12 0EH.
> _______________________________________________ NetBehaviour mailing
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org
> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
--
Co-founder Co-director
Furtherfield
www.furtherfield.org
+44 (0) 77370 02879
Meeting calendar - http://bit.ly/1NgeLce
Bitcoin Address 197BBaXa6M9PtHhhNTQkuHh1pVJA8RrJ2i
Furtherfield is the UK's leading organisation for art shows, labs, &
debates
around critical questions in art and technology, since 1997
Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee
registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205.
Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade,
Tally Ho Corner, London N12 0EH.
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