[NetBehaviour] Solutionism Re: An interview with Geert Lovink
ruth catlow
ruth.catlow at furtherfield.org
Mon Oct 5 19:06:31 CEST 2015
Dear EVERYONE
I'm sticking to this subject header - cos it tickles me that Geert (gawd
bless 'im) started all of this (admittedly inadvertently)- and I want to
keep the thread intact. (Though I agree Randal that we move on...soon)
Annie, let's talk back-channel about possible guests - thank you for
offering. Perfect....!
On the point about grappling with the complexity of different systems we
definitely want to find a way to host online a live group discussion
that will allow us to pick through the various platforms and softwares
to understand their different socialities.
Randall's offer to host another gathering on his platform is a good one.
Then we may set up a parallel place and invite you all to come and test.
And if any of you wanted to do the same- go for it.
Having said that- my feeling is that the recent discussion perfectly
demonstrates the wonder of the email discussion list as a platform. One
of the main reasons for questioning it, was that Mailman is just
starting to not work for so many people- glitching out.
We are not going to move anything immediately - though SOON. We must
focus right now on the upcoming launch of our first exhibition for Art
Data Money http://www.furtherfield.org/artdatamoney/art-shows/
It opens next Friday (16th) at 5pm - please come along anyone near
London- as usual we'd love to see you.
HUGE THANKS TO YOU ALL!
: )
Ruth
On 05/10/15 12:07, Annie Abrahams wrote:
> Hi Ruth, just you ...
> I think it might be a good idea to set up a meeting with those who
> want to continue this conversation. Where? That's up to Ruth and Marc
> I think. I'll come whereever they go. (and then I decided to write to
> you only Ruth)
> I want to be bothered less and less with testing new things, but if
> it's important, like staying connected to furtherfield, I will make an
> effort.
> It's a political decision and I think you should decide wether to
> follow Randall's adobe or Rob's suggestion (the last one makes me
> afraid, bucause most things Rob proposes are complicated - but if he
> could make it "easy" I guess it would be fine and a nice experiment.
> I can also understand it if you don't want to have such an online-live
> conversation now. Anyway my volunteering to be a "host" on the
> mailinglist stays, just tell me who and when to introduce ... (I could
> also ask others to be hosts, but I guess it would be better to wait
> until the situation of where you will go will be a bit clearer) most
> important question maybe Who wants to be actively involved?
>
> bye bye
> Annie
>
> I'll have to be bothered with testing etc, because I'll have to find a
> new streaming interface (testing combination of opentok (is this
> relaiable? - I don't ask you Ruth :)) and openbroadcasting, and then
> find a strong server). maybe in january we will try to make it a
> common project with OUDEIS., maybe
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 12:41 PM, ruth catlow
> <ruth.catlow at furtherfield.org <mailto:ruth.catlow at furtherfield.org>>
> wrote:
>
> Great point and idea Aharon!
>
> >Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A
> changing day?
>
> Right now- I find myself favouring the last thing anyone writes: )
>
> Perhaps we could set up a time to discuss via live chat or google hangouts or somesuch with anyone interested.
>
> :)R
>
> On 03/10/15 11:34, Patrick Lichty wrote:
>> Actually, while not a solution, I think a Diaspora node would be a great
>> experiment.
>>
>> On 10/3/15, 2:05 PM, "aharon"<aha at aharonic.net> <mailto:aha at aharonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hiyas,
>>>
>>> Very interesting quick mapping of possibilities, Rob + Patrick - Cheers!
>>>
>>> Had some failed attempts linked with mailinglist and web oriented self
>>> hosted "solutions"..
>>>
>>> * Bridge between a mailinglist where each post becomes a blog-post that is
>>> in turn being published on a twitter-like platform (old identica, can be
>>> done nowadays with gnu-social).
>>> Problem was plurality of possible triggers - via email, blog, identica -
>>> made it fun but hard for people to follow content.
>>>
>>> * Bridge between drupal and mailinglist. That was done via mailinglist and
>>> drupal signup page. So when people registered in either, they were
>>> registering in both.
>>> The idea was that in this case, people could post to either list and/or a
>>> drupal forum. These were interchangeable. So posts, replies etc were
>>> published on both and people could use which ever tool.
>>> That didn't catch up much for a few bugs and more importantly, people seem
>>> a bit confused by the multiple platforms. Hard to tell whether a bugless
>>> system would have caught up.
>>>
>>> * A meta messaging system "MEM" where users could direct messages between
>>> tools. e.g. Say Blooby fancied email and sent stuff, Zlooby could receive
>>> the message as a txt or a blog post, or whatever they fancied at that
>>> time.
>>> People could alter message retrieval as they fancied.
>>> People could send stuff as they fancied.
>>> The system itself MEM was centralised, but people's tools were as they
>>> might want. All that needed was api registration.
>>>
>>> (For me the interesting bit was that each activity was to create a string
>>> that could be expressed in audio and lighting intensity/colour
>>> instructions. Hence the networking was evolving visceral materials..)
>>>
>>> Anyhow, MEM's funding went boom..
>>>
>>> * A different approach entirely is that which we took in the recent
>>> SafeShare.
>>> A network for a very specific community, developed with the community
>>> members inbucfp.org <http://bucfp.org> ) The development through workshops that teased out
>>> requirementts, offered possible solutions and through usage feedback, we
>>> opted for temporary solutions to begin with. The idea is that this will
>>> assist in initial usage and as the system is used more, we could alter it
>>> later. (perhaps even via more similar workshops if needed..)
>>>
>>> Not sure this is applicable here, because there is much broader
>>> participation.
>>> However it might be an idea to use the need for a change as an opening to
>>> try various solutions live with the people involved? A sort of
>>> evolutionary approach?
>>>
>>> Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A
>>> changing day?
>>>
>>> Apologies for too many questions possibly.. Hopefully some are apt.
>>>
>>> Probably the gist of this is that it seems altering the communication
>>> system and platforms can be a tricky process and it would be a shame to
>>> lose people as a result.
>>>
>>> Cheers and a fab weekend!
>>>
>>> aharon
>>> xx
>>>
>>> PS
>>> Any thoughts re a diaspora node..?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, October 3, 2015 07:09, Patrick Lichty wrote:
>>>> Rob,
>>>> I think that as usual, you¹re brilliant. The metric tracking idea seems
>>>> OK, maybe, but might be a bit of a red herring.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All:
>>>> I think that Furtherfield is at a pivotal moment similar to the
>>>> institutionalization moment of Rhizome, where it asked; ³How can we have
>>>> maximum imapact/reach, etc?²
>>>>
>>>> I know I¹m conflating a LOT of terms here, but I think my core argument
>>>> is sound. I realize that the impetus here is to bring FF goodness to
>>>> larger groups and spread light in the jungle of other art communities.
>>>> However,
>>>> a few things to consider.
>>>>
>>>> So, what happened? In my conversation with the execs there over time,
>>>> There was an admission that the lists were forumized to facilitate
>>>> institutional discourse, and Michael Connor even admitted to not
>>>> focusing
>>>> on community, and with the cutbacks, I¹ll be curious to see what Zach
>>>> does.
>>>>
>>>> Secondly, regarding bridge-building - this relates to serving inter
>>>> community needs. An extreme example is my conversation with Cao Fei
>>>> during
>>>> the building of RMB City in Second Life. She had no idea of the
>>>> necessity for community engagement before our conversation; she just
>>>> assumed that people would know who she was and flock to the servers.
>>>> What
>>>> she didn¹t realize was that Sl and the Artworld are totally different
>>>> birds.
>>>>
>>>> Furherfield is in a much better position in that the ³new media² (sic)
>>>> community, as shown in my (hopefully) upcoming late review of ISEA that
>>>> the
>>>> Contemporary and the Tech Media artworlds are less divergent than
>>>> ever, probably (urrr�) thanks to the postinternets. ISEA 2015 showed
>>>> that
>>>> the art historical traditions are concurrent at this time, and piercing
>>>> the membrane might be relatively easy.
>>>>
>>>> Back to Rhizome.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think that Rhizome¹s path was a Faustian bargain. Its decentering
>>>> from
>>>> the community model, IMO, is coming to roost as the institutions are
>>>> giving it less resources (and isn¹t it even outside of the NuMu now?),
>>>> and there isn¹t a community except for the young blue-chips to rely on.
>>>> First, withFF¹s punk roots, I doubt that many of the pitfalls that beset
>>>> R
>>>> will hit FF. And there is a valid question - how does FF continue to
>>>> evolve without neglecting its core values? Good question.
>>>>
>>>> And I¹ll be selfish in that although I am not terribly active, the list
>>>> is my main umbilical to the community at this time, and I want it to
>>>> stay a
>>>> list. I¹mnot against outreaches, don¹t think that the list should just
>>>> be
>>>> a haven for hoary New Media artists, but on the other hand, I feel that
>>>> the list has a good community that is pretty healthy. I also think
>>>> there
>>>> are good models like Nettime that are excellent cases to defend the
>>>> form, and�
>>>>
>>>> For Powers¹ Sake, The Well???
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There¹s is a case for the power of Ur-Forums and their continued power.
>>>> My buds Lebkowsky and Sterling rock the cybersphere every year from a
>>>> anciently formatted mail thread there every year through The State of
>>>> the
>>>> World every year.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think FF has a precious resource in its list, and I¹m not in favor of
>>>> much more than incremental change. The axiom of that which evolves dies
>>>> doesn¹t necessarily fit here, as it¹s a matter of community investiture
>>>> rather than logistics. Looking at the list institutionally rather than
>>>> socially is a salient debate to have, and I don¹t want to lose the sense
>>>> of community I have here. This is one of the last informal venues I
>>>> have
>>>> to just shoot the shit, as it were, and I think it¹s one of the few
>>>> where you can in this format.
>>>>
>>>> My .02 AED...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/3/15, 9:01 AM, "Rob Myers"<rob at robmyers.org> <mailto:rob at robmyers.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 02/10/15 04:03 AM, ruth catlow wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Furtherfield HQ (first think Google and then try to imagine the
>>>>>> opposite)
>>>>> An open-ended and non-enclosed structure with no basketball courts or
>>>>> free candy vending machines?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Two issues
>>>>>> 1) the cost and time associated with strategising, consulting,
>>>>>> designing, planning and remunerating all involved, for their efforts
>>>>>> while: future-proofing community infrastructure, caring for the
>>>>>> archive/database. We have had some really very good and generous
>>>>>> support from a number of people to help us understand what the process
>>>>>> might be, but the work still needs doing...and all risks mitigated!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) connected to the above - maintaining the connections we all have,
>>>>>> while inviting in new and diverse (in age, background, device-loyalty,
>>>>>> ethnicity) people.
>>>>> There are a few approaches, with different affordances and costs
>>>>> (economic and political).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Yay Walled Gardens!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Use Medium for publishing articles, hosted Discourse for mail/boards,
>>>>> and Slack for co-ordination/chat.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cost: 100USD/month plus your soul.
>>>>> Demographic: Current.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. All Zuck All The Time
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Use Facebook Notes for publishing articles, Facebook pages for
>>>>> discussion, and Facebook messaging for co-ordination/chat.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cost: Zero, plus the souls of all humanity.
>>>>> Demographic: Previous.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Current Free Software
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Use Jekyll for publishing (mediated via GitLabs or at a pinch GitHub)
>>>>> [TODO: comment system], self-hosted Discourse or Groupserver for
>>>>> mail/boards, and an existing GNU social install or irc for co-ord/chat.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cost: As much as hosting costs.
>>>>> Demographic: current.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. Hosted Free Software
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Use Wordpress for publishing, see iflurk.org <http://lurk.org> will host Netbehaviour on
>>>>> their Groupserver install, and use an existing GNU social install or
>>>>> irc for co-ord/chat.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cost: As much as the services cost, look for donations.
>>>>> Demographic: Almost current.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For any self-hosted or donated services, stick them behind Cloudflare.
>>>>> Good for DDOS and ssl, bad for centralization.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Choice of platform is to a degree choice of audience, cultural context
>>>>> and politics. Not in a technologically deterministic sense but in the
>>>>> sense that different book publishers or record labels are. Change the
>>>>> system, exploit the system, or buck the system?
>>>>>
>>>>> - Rob.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NetBehaviour mailing list
>>>>> NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>>>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Co-founder Co-director
> Furtherfield
>
> www.furtherfield.org <http://www.furtherfield.org>
>
> +44 (0) 77370 02879
> Meeting calendar - http://bit.ly/1NgeLce
> Bitcoin Address 197BBaXa6M9PtHhhNTQkuHh1pVJA8RrJ2i
>
> Furtherfield is the UK's leading organisation for art shows, labs,
> & debates
> around critical questions in art and technology, since 1997
>
> Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee
> registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205.
> Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand
> Arcade, Tally Ho Corner, London N12 0EH.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *26 09 14h* /vivre entre – from estranger to e-stranger/, une
> *conférence performée
> festival Magdalena, * La Bulle Bleue
> <http://www.labullebleue.fr/#%21/magdalenaproject>, 285 rue du Mas de
> Prunet, Montpellier
> aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/
> <https://aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/>/*
> */
>
> /*besides, *
> /online performances *On Object Agency *
> with Martina Ruhsam
> *archives* (text, script, video, images)*/
> /*bram.org/besides/ <http://bram.org/besides/>
>
> *Marc Garrett* interviewed me for the *Choose Your Muse* series on
> *Furtherfield*
> furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams
> <http://www.furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams>
>
>
> */
> /*
>
--
Co-founder Co-director
Furtherfield
www.furtherfield.org
+44 (0) 77370 02879
Meeting calendar - http://bit.ly/1NgeLce
Bitcoin Address 197BBaXa6M9PtHhhNTQkuHh1pVJA8RrJ2i
Furtherfield is the UK's leading organisation for art shows, labs, &
debates
around critical questions in art and technology, since 1997
Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee
registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205.
Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade,
Tally Ho Corner, London N12 0EH.
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