[NetBehaviour] Solutionism Re: An interview with Geert Lovink

ruth catlow ruth.catlow at furtherfield.org
Mon Oct 5 19:06:31 CEST 2015


Dear EVERYONE

I'm sticking to this subject header - cos it tickles me that Geert (gawd 
bless 'im) started all of this (admittedly inadvertently)- and I want to 
keep the thread intact. (Though I agree Randal that we move on...soon)

Annie, let's talk back-channel about possible guests - thank you for 
offering. Perfect....!

On the point about grappling with the complexity of different systems we 
definitely want to find a way to host online a live group discussion 
that will allow us to pick through the various platforms and softwares 
to understand their different socialities.

Randall's offer to host another gathering on his platform is a good one.

Then we may set up a parallel place and invite you all to come and test. 
And if any of you wanted to do the same- go for it.

Having said that- my feeling is that the recent discussion perfectly 
demonstrates the wonder of the email discussion list as a platform. One 
of the main reasons for questioning it, was that Mailman is just 
starting to not work for so many people- glitching out.

We are not going to move anything immediately - though SOON. We must 
focus right now on the upcoming launch of our first exhibition for Art 
Data Money http://www.furtherfield.org/artdatamoney/art-shows/

It opens next Friday (16th) at 5pm - please come along anyone near 
London- as usual we'd love to see you.

HUGE THANKS TO YOU ALL!

: )
Ruth

On 05/10/15 12:07, Annie Abrahams wrote:
> Hi Ruth, just you  ...
> I think it might be a good idea to set up a meeting with those who 
> want to continue this conversation. Where? That's up to Ruth and Marc 
> I think. I'll come whereever they go. (and then I decided to write to 
> you only Ruth)
> I want to be bothered less and less with testing new things, but if 
> it's important, like staying connected to furtherfield, I will make an 
> effort.
> It's a political decision and I think you should decide wether to 
> follow Randall's adobe or Rob's suggestion (the last one makes me 
> afraid, bucause most things Rob proposes are complicated - but if he 
> could make it "easy" I guess it would be fine and a nice experiment.
> I can also understand it if you don't want to have such an online-live 
> conversation now. Anyway my volunteering to be a "host" on the 
> mailinglist stays, just tell me who and when to introduce ... (I could 
> also ask others to be hosts, but I guess it would be better to wait 
> until the situation of where you will go will be a bit clearer) most 
> important question maybe Who wants to be actively involved?
>
> bye bye
> Annie
>
> I'll have to be bothered with testing etc, because I'll have to find a 
> new streaming interface (testing combination of opentok (is this 
> relaiable? - I don't ask you Ruth :)) and openbroadcasting, and then 
> find a strong server). maybe in january we will try to make it a 
> common project with OUDEIS., maybe
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 12:41 PM, ruth catlow 
> <ruth.catlow at furtherfield.org <mailto:ruth.catlow at furtherfield.org>> 
> wrote:
>
>     Great point and idea Aharon!
>
>     >Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A
>     changing day?
>
>     Right now- I find myself favouring the last thing anyone writes: )
>
>     Perhaps we could set up a time to discuss via live chat or google hangouts or somesuch with anyone interested.
>
>     :)R
>
>     On 03/10/15 11:34, Patrick Lichty wrote:
>>     Actually, while not a solution, I think a Diaspora node would be a great
>>     experiment.
>>
>>     On 10/3/15, 2:05 PM, "aharon"<aha at aharonic.net>  <mailto:aha at aharonic.net>  wrote:
>>
>>>     Hiyas,
>>>
>>>     Very interesting quick mapping of possibilities, Rob + Patrick - Cheers!
>>>
>>>     Had some failed attempts linked with mailinglist and web oriented self
>>>     hosted "solutions"..
>>>
>>>     * Bridge between a mailinglist where each post becomes a blog-post that is
>>>     in turn being published on a twitter-like platform (old identica, can be
>>>     done nowadays with gnu-social).
>>>     Problem was plurality of possible triggers - via email, blog, identica -
>>>     made it fun but hard for people to follow content.
>>>
>>>     * Bridge between drupal and mailinglist. That was done via mailinglist and
>>>     drupal signup page. So when people registered in either, they were
>>>     registering in both.
>>>     The idea was that in this case, people could post to either list and/or a
>>>     drupal forum. These were interchangeable. So posts, replies etc were
>>>     published on both and people could use which ever tool.
>>>     That didn't catch up much for a few bugs and more importantly, people seem
>>>     a bit confused by the multiple platforms. Hard to tell whether a bugless
>>>     system would have caught up.
>>>
>>>     * A meta messaging system "MEM" where users could direct messages between
>>>     tools. e.g. Say Blooby fancied email and sent stuff, Zlooby could receive
>>>     the message as a txt or a blog post, or whatever they fancied at that
>>>     time.
>>>     People could alter message retrieval as they fancied.
>>>     People could send stuff as they fancied.
>>>     The system itself MEM was centralised, but people's tools were as they
>>>     might want. All that needed was api registration.
>>>
>>>     (For me the interesting bit was that each activity was to create a string
>>>     that could be expressed in audio and lighting intensity/colour
>>>     instructions. Hence the networking was evolving visceral materials..)
>>>
>>>     Anyhow, MEM's funding went boom..
>>>
>>>     * A different approach entirely is that which we took in the recent
>>>     SafeShare.
>>>     A network for a very specific community, developed with the community
>>>     members inbucfp.org  <http://bucfp.org>  ) The development through workshops that teased out
>>>     requirementts, offered possible solutions and through usage feedback, we
>>>     opted for temporary solutions to begin with. The idea is that this will
>>>     assist in initial usage and as the system is used more, we could alter it
>>>     later. (perhaps even via more similar workshops if needed..)
>>>
>>>     Not sure this is applicable here, because there is much broader
>>>     participation.
>>>     However it might be an idea to use the need for a change as an opening to
>>>     try various solutions live with the people involved? A sort of
>>>     evolutionary approach?
>>>
>>>     Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A
>>>     changing day?
>>>
>>>     Apologies for too many questions possibly.. Hopefully some are apt.
>>>
>>>     Probably the gist of this is that it seems altering the communication
>>>     system and platforms can be a tricky process and it would be a shame to
>>>     lose people as a result.
>>>
>>>     Cheers and a fab weekend!
>>>
>>>     aharon
>>>     xx
>>>
>>>     PS
>>>     Any thoughts re a diaspora node..?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     On Sat, October 3, 2015 07:09, Patrick Lichty wrote:
>>>>     Rob,
>>>>     I think that as usual, you¹re brilliant.  The metric tracking idea seems
>>>>     OK, maybe, but might be a bit of a red herring.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     All:
>>>>     I think that Furtherfield is at a pivotal moment similar to the
>>>>     institutionalization moment of Rhizome, where it asked; ³How can we have
>>>>     maximum imapact/reach, etc?²
>>>>
>>>>     I know I¹m conflating a LOT of terms here, but I think my core argument
>>>>     is sound.  I realize that the impetus here is to bring FF goodness to
>>>>     larger groups and spread light in the jungle of other art communities.
>>>>     However,
>>>>     a few things to consider.
>>>>
>>>>     So, what happened?  In my conversation with the execs there over time,
>>>>     There was an admission that the lists were forumized to facilitate
>>>>     institutional discourse, and Michael Connor even admitted to not
>>>>     focusing
>>>>     on community, and with the cutbacks, I¹ll be curious to see what Zach
>>>>     does.
>>>>
>>>>     Secondly, regarding bridge-building - this relates to serving inter
>>>>     community needs. An extreme example is my conversation with Cao Fei
>>>>     during
>>>>       the building of RMB City in Second Life.  She had no idea of the
>>>>     necessity for community engagement before our conversation; she just
>>>>     assumed that people would know who she was and flock to the servers.
>>>>     What
>>>>     she didn¹t realize was that Sl and the Artworld are totally different
>>>>     birds.
>>>>
>>>>     Furherfield is in a much better position in that the ³new media² (sic)
>>>>     community, as shown in my (hopefully) upcoming late review of ISEA that
>>>>     the
>>>>     Contemporary and the Tech Media artworlds are less divergent than
>>>>     ever, probably (urrr�) thanks to the postinternets.  ISEA 2015 showed
>>>>     that
>>>>       the art historical traditions are concurrent at this time, and piercing
>>>>     the membrane might be relatively easy.
>>>>
>>>>     Back to Rhizome.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     I think that Rhizome¹s path was a Faustian bargain.  Its decentering
>>>>     from
>>>>       the community model, IMO, is coming to roost as the institutions are
>>>>     giving it less resources (and isn¹t it even outside of the NuMu now?),
>>>>     and there isn¹t a community except for the young blue-chips to rely on.
>>>>     First, withFF¹s punk roots, I doubt that many of the pitfalls that beset
>>>>     R
>>>>     will hit FF.  And there is a valid question - how does FF continue to
>>>>     evolve without neglecting its core values? Good question.
>>>>
>>>>     And I¹ll be selfish in that although I am not terribly active, the list
>>>>     is my main umbilical to the community at this time, and I want it to
>>>>     stay a
>>>>     list.  I¹mnot against outreaches, don¹t think that the list should just
>>>>     be
>>>>     a haven for hoary New Media artists, but on the other hand, I feel that
>>>>     the list has a good community that is pretty healthy.  I also think
>>>>     there
>>>>       are good models like Nettime that are excellent cases to defend the
>>>>     form, and�
>>>>
>>>>     For Powers¹ Sake, The Well???
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     There¹s is a case for the power of Ur-Forums and their continued power.
>>>>     My buds Lebkowsky and Sterling rock the cybersphere every year from a
>>>>     anciently formatted mail thread there every year through The State of
>>>>     the
>>>>     World every year.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     I think FF has a precious resource in its list, and I¹m not in favor of
>>>>     much more than incremental change.  The axiom of that which evolves dies
>>>>     doesn¹t necessarily fit here, as it¹s a matter of community investiture
>>>>     rather than logistics.  Looking at the list institutionally rather than
>>>>     socially is a salient debate to have, and I don¹t want to lose the sense
>>>>     of community I have here.  This is one of the last informal venues I
>>>>     have
>>>>       to just shoot the shit, as it were, and I think it¹s one of the few
>>>>     where you can in this format.
>>>>
>>>>     My .02 AED...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On 10/3/15, 9:01 AM, "Rob Myers"<rob at robmyers.org>  <mailto:rob at robmyers.org>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>     On 02/10/15 04:03 AM, ruth catlow wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>     Furtherfield HQ (first think Google and then try to imagine the
>>>>>>     opposite)
>>>>>     An open-ended and non-enclosed structure with no basketball courts or
>>>>>     free candy vending machines?
>>>>>
>>>>>>     Two issues
>>>>>>     1) the cost and time associated with strategising, consulting,
>>>>>>     designing, planning and remunerating all involved, for their efforts
>>>>>>     while: future-proofing community infrastructure, caring for the
>>>>>>     archive/database. We have had some really very good and generous
>>>>>>     support from a number of people to help us understand what the process
>>>>>>     might be, but the work still needs doing...and all risks mitigated!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     2) connected to the above - maintaining the connections we all have,
>>>>>>     while inviting in new and diverse (in age, background, device-loyalty,
>>>>>>       ethnicity) people.
>>>>>     There are a few approaches, with different affordances and costs
>>>>>     (economic and political).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     1. Yay Walled Gardens!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Use Medium for publishing articles, hosted Discourse for mail/boards,
>>>>>     and Slack for co-ordination/chat.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Cost: 100USD/month plus your soul.
>>>>>     Demographic: Current.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     2. All Zuck All The Time
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Use Facebook Notes for publishing articles, Facebook pages for
>>>>>     discussion, and Facebook messaging for co-ordination/chat.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Cost: Zero, plus the souls of all humanity.
>>>>>     Demographic: Previous.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     3. Current Free Software
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Use Jekyll for publishing (mediated via GitLabs or at a pinch GitHub)
>>>>>     [TODO: comment system], self-hosted Discourse or Groupserver for
>>>>>     mail/boards, and an existing GNU social install or irc for co-ord/chat.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Cost: As much as hosting costs.
>>>>>     Demographic: current.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     4. Hosted Free Software
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Use Wordpress for publishing, see iflurk.org  <http://lurk.org>  will host Netbehaviour on
>>>>>       their Groupserver install, and use an existing GNU social install or
>>>>>     irc for co-ord/chat.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Cost: As much as the services cost, look for donations.
>>>>>     Demographic: Almost current.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     For any self-hosted or donated services, stick them behind Cloudflare.
>>>>>     Good for DDOS and ssl, bad for centralization.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Choice of platform is to a degree choice of audience, cultural context
>>>>>     and politics. Not in a technologically deterministic sense but in the
>>>>>     sense that different book publishers or record labels are. Change the
>>>>>     system, exploit the system, or buck the system?
>>>>>
>>>>>     - Rob.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>     NetBehaviour mailing list
>>>>>     NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org  <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>>>>>     http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     NetBehaviour mailing list
>>>>     NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org  <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>>>>     http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>>>
>>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     NetBehaviour mailing list
>>>     NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org  <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>>>     http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>>>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     NetBehaviour mailing list
>>     NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org  <mailto:NetBehaviour at netbehaviour.org>
>>     http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>
>     -- 
>     Co-founder Co-director
>     Furtherfield
>
>     www.furtherfield.org <http://www.furtherfield.org>
>
>     +44 (0) 77370 02879
>     Meeting calendar - http://bit.ly/1NgeLce
>     Bitcoin Address 197BBaXa6M9PtHhhNTQkuHh1pVJA8RrJ2i
>
>     Furtherfield is the UK's leading organisation for art shows, labs,
>     & debates
>     around critical questions in art and technology, since 1997
>
>     Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee
>     registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205.
>     Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand
>     Arcade, Tally Ho Corner, London N12 0EH.
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     NetBehaviour mailing list
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>     http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
>
>
>
>
> -- 
>
> *26 09 14h* /vivre entre – from estranger to e-stranger/, une 
> *conférence performée
> festival Magdalena, * La Bulle Bleue 
> <http://www.labullebleue.fr/#%21/magdalenaproject>, 285 rue du Mas de 
> Prunet, Montpellier
> aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/ 
> <https://aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger/>/*
> */
>
> /*besides, *
> /online performances *On Object Agency *
> with Martina Ruhsam
> *archives* (text, script, video, images)*/
> /*bram.org/besides/ <http://bram.org/besides/>
>
> *Marc Garrett* interviewed me for the *Choose Your Muse* series on 
> *Furtherfield*
> furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams 
> <http://www.furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrahams> 
>
>
> */
> /*
>


-- 
Co-founder Co-director
Furtherfield

www.furtherfield.org

+44 (0) 77370 02879
Meeting calendar - http://bit.ly/1NgeLce
Bitcoin Address 197BBaXa6M9PtHhhNTQkuHh1pVJA8RrJ2i

Furtherfield is the UK's leading organisation for art shows, labs, & 
debates
around critical questions in art and technology, since 1997

Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee
registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205.
Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade, 
Tally Ho Corner, London N12 0EH.
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