[NetBehaviour] Communication in Online Communities

Tue Oct 6 14:18:30 CEST 2015

Thank you for this communication as usual it is very inspiring....I have
few questions..
Can anyone share why FB, G+, or any of the discussion platforms did not
work?
It is great to receive e-mails how do you honor them when time is of an
issue?
If someone found a discussion platform that worked for them do you mind
sharing?

Thanks again

Netbehaviour has been one of my mainstays for discovering new work, new
artists, new ideas; the urls serve me and I can easily follow through from
them. And I can't imagine having even this discussion, say, on Wordpress or
Fb;-  one of the advantages of email is that it arrives without its own
platform, or with minimalized platforms or with self-designed platforms;
it's as close to discussion we can have if we include, obviously, buffering
and communality (Skype isn't good at either for example). Fb discussions
trail out and disperse as well; G+ was, if I remember correctly, supposed
to be a discussion platform, but again that seemed to collapse, just as
newsgroups did. To bring an antique acronym back for a second, email is
wysiwyg; it's platform independent. I'd say a potentially simple solution
would be to have a Furtherfield studio for open presentations, projects,
etc., running on a separate server. As far as changing the demographics of
the list - that's another problem and an important one, and it seems to me
that people who are teaching in university or say k 9-12 (in the U.S.)
might be able to bring students in; I used to do that with other lists when
I had a position. For myself, I find a kind of skittering underlying the
discussion and I worry about that; philosophy, new media aesthetics, etc.,
are difficult topics, there are a lot of exploratory/explanatory sites out
there, and the value of this list, like empyre, is that it creates a focus;
I take what I learn here and it becomes part of my day in a way that Fb
posts don't, Wired.com doesn't, etc. The commons like the stoa are a place
of discussion and hopefully a kind of quietude that provides the grounds
for discussion - as an example, I learned far more about anguish on the
extended presentations on empyre (when Johannes and I co-moderated a
discussion on absolute terror, ISIS, and performance), than I did on all
the fast-forward and intermittent talk/presentations elsewhere. I was able
to follow through with the buffering, url extensions, and even chat/skype
that came out of it. I'm on Fb, blogs, G+, news, etc. daily, but here I can
contemplate in an entirely different way, one close, in fact, to nature, to
what's left of the natural environment (and there are a number of studies
indicating that such is good for your health, not only mentally, but also
physically) - so I would argue that we keep this core as it is, extend the
demography, as much as possible, and build elsewhere. (As a final note, I
tend to read most of my email in a linux terminal; the advantage is even
less graphics, no advertising, and a kind of textual presentation that
approaches Vygotsky's inner speech. I remember more, think more, etc., but
of course this isn't for everyone and I use gmail, Fb messaging as well.) -
Alan, thanks for a great discussion -

>
> On Mon, 5 Oct 2015, Randall Packer wrote:
>
> I want to express a note of thanks to all those who have been participating
>> in this interesting conversation. I have also adjusted the topic because
>> we
>> abandoned Geert?s interview long ago.
>>
>> I think this is a fascinating and relevant discussion for NetBehaviour
>> and I
>> too hope it will lead to a more focused discussion that could potentially
>> lead to action. But in the meantime, it is an important conversation,
>> because there are many here and elsewhere who are grappling with
>> information
>> flows among online communities: grappling with the conservation of
>> knowledge, the ease of access, open source issues, sharing, collaboration
>> and transparency. Clearly there is no one way of doing this, but I would
>> propose that rather than getting overly fixated here on the list with the
>> technical complexities of specific software and hardware solutions, which
>> is
>> enough to make anyone dizzy, (I agree with Annie this may be better served
>> in a focus group), that here in NetBehaviour there is an opportunity to
>> think broadly about collaborative online spaces that aspire to provide an
>> alternative to the geographical and social limitations of face to face.
>>
>> I don?t think anyone here is suggesting a radical shift away from the ease
>> and access of email, but rather understanding what is possible and what do
>> online communities require to serve their needs. For me, one of the main
>> reasons to be engaged here is to get to know artists from around the
>> world,
>> what they are working on, their ideas, etc. But another important reason
>> is
>> to participate in a shared knowledge base. This was the dream of Vannevar
>> Bush back in the 1940s with his famous essay ?As We May Think,? where he
>> discussed the idea of the ?cultural record? built by online communities
>> with
>>
>> their communications threads and histories and digressions. He was
>> concerned
>> back then with how to organize the information flow, and now 70 years
>> later,
>> we are still grappling with the same issue.
>>
>> There are many important ideas embedded in this list, with trails of
>> creative thought and production that lead in various directions. But how
>> do
>> you follow these trails? How do you search them? How do you distill them?
>> Are we really using database technologically effectively to understand and
>> organize the underlying narrative of our conversation and collaborative
>> work? How would we ever access all the DIWO projects that have been
>> produced
>> here?
>>
>> These are the questions I am interested in and how they can be best served
>> within the context of the collaborative online community of NetBehaviour.
>>
>> From: <netbehaviour-bounces at netbehaviour.org> on behalf of Annie Abrahams
>> Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
>> Date: Monday, October 5, 2015 at 7:07 AM
>> To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity, ruth catlow
>> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] Solutionism Re: An interview with Geert Lovink
>>
>> Hi Ruth, just you  ...
>> I think it might be a good idea to set up a meeting with those who want to
>> continue this conversation. Where? That's up to Ruth and Marc I think.
>> I'll
>> come whereever they go. (and then I decided to write to you only Ruth)
>> I want to be bothered less and less with testing new things, but if it's
>> important, like staying connected to furtherfield, I will make an effort.
>> It's a political decision and I think you should decide wether to follow
>> Randall's adobe or Rob's suggestion (the last one makes me afraid, bucause
>> most things Rob proposes are complicated - but if he could make it "easy"
>> I
>> guess it would be fine and a nice experiment.
>> I can also understand it if you don't want to have such an online-live
>> conversation now. Anyway my volunteering to be a "host" on the mailinglist
>> stays, just tell me who and when to introduce ... (I could also ask others
>> to be hosts, but I guess it would be better to wait until the situation of
>> where you will go will be a bit clearer) most important question maybe Who
>> wants to be actively involved?
>>
>> bye bye
>> Annie
>>
>> I'll have to be bothered with testing etc, because I'll have to find a new
>> streaming interface (testing combination of opentok (is this relaiable? -
>> I
>> don't ask you Ruth :)) and openbroadcasting, and then find a strong
>> server).
>> maybe in january we will try to make it a common project with OUDEIS.,
>> maybe
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 12:41 PM, ruth catlow <
>> ruth.catlow at furtherfield.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Great point and idea Aharon!
>>
>> >Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A
>> changing day?
>>
>> Right now- I find myself favouring the last thing anyone writes: )
>>
>> Perhaps we could set up a time to discuss via live chat or google
>> hangouts o
>> r somesuch with anyone interested.
>>
>> :)R
>>
>>       On 03/10/15 11:34, Patrick Lichty wrote:
>>
>> Actually, while not a solution, I think a Diaspora node would be a great
>> experiment.
>>
>> On 10/3/15, 2:05 PM, "aharon" <aha at aharonic.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hiyas,
>>
>> Very interesting quick mapping of possibilities, Rob + Patrick - Cheers!
>>
>> Had some failed attempts linked with mailinglist and web oriented self
>> hosted "solutions"..
>>
>> * Bridge between a mailinglist where each post becomes a blog-post that is
>> in turn being published on a twitter-like platform (old identica, can be
>> done nowadays with gnu-social).
>> Problem was plurality of possible triggers - via email, blog, identica -
>> made it fun but hard for people to follow content.
>>
>> * Bridge between drupal and mailinglist. That was done via mailinglist and
>> drupal signup page. So when people registered in either, they were
>> registering in both.
>> The idea was that in this case, people could post to either list and/or a
>> drupal forum. These were interchangeable. So posts, replies etc were
>> published on both and people could use which ever tool.
>> That didn't catch up much for a few bugs and more importantly, people seem
>> a bit confused by the multiple platforms. Hard to tell whether a bugless
>> system would have caught up.
>>
>> * A meta messaging system "MEM" where users could direct messages between
>> tools. e.g. Say Blooby fancied email and sent stuff, Zlooby could receive
>> the message as a txt or a blog post, or whatever they fancied at that
>> time.
>> People could alter message retrieval as they fancied.
>> People could send stuff as they fancied.
>> The system itself MEM was centralised, but people's tools were as they
>> might want. All that needed was api registration.
>>
>> (For me the interesting bit was that each activity was to create a string
>> that could be expressed in audio and lighting intensity/colour
>> instructions. Hence the networking was evolving visceral materials..)
>>
>> Anyhow, MEM's funding went boom..
>>
>> * A different approach entirely is that which we took in the recent
>> SafeShare.
>> A network for a very specific community, developed with the community
>> members in bucfp.org ) The development through workshops that teased out
>> requirementts, offered possible solutions and through usage feedback, we
>> opted for temporary solutions to begin with. The idea is that this will
>> assist in initial usage and as the system is used more, we could alter it
>> later. (perhaps even via more similar workshops if needed..)
>>
>> Not sure this is applicable here, because there is much broader
>> participation.
>> However it might be an idea to use the need for a change as an opening to
>> try various solutions live with the people involved? A sort of
>> evolutionary approach?
>>
>> Indeed, I wonder how a change in the system might actually occur? A
>> changing day?
>>
>> Apologies for too many questions possibly.. Hopefully some are apt.
>>
>> Probably the gist of this is that it seems altering the communication
>> system and platforms can be a tricky process and it would be a shame to
>> lose people as a result.
>>
>> Cheers and a fab weekend!
>>
>> aharon
>> xx
>>
>> PS
>> Any thoughts re a diaspora node..?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, October 3, 2015 07:09, Patrick Lichty wrote:
>>
>> Rob,
>> I think that as usual, you?re brilliant.  The metric tracking idea seems
>> OK, maybe, but might be a bit of a red herring.
>>
>>
>> All:
>> I think that Furtherfield is at a pivotal moment similar to the
>> institutionalization moment of Rhizome, where it asked; ?How can we have
>> maximum imapact/reach, etc??
>>
>> I know I?m conflating a LOT of terms here, but I think my core argument
>> is sound.  I realize that the impetus here is to bring FF goodness to
>> larger groups and spread light in the jungle of other art communities.
>> However,
>> a few things to consider.
>>
>> So, what happened?  In my conversation with the execs there over time,
>> There was an admission that the lists were forumized to facilitate
>> institutional discourse, and Michael Connor even admitted to not
>> focusing
>> on community, and with the cutbacks, I?ll be curious to see what Zach
>> does.
>>
>> Secondly, regarding bridge-building - this relates to serving inter
>> community needs. An extreme example is my conversation with Cao Fei
>> during
>>  the building of RMB City in Second Life.  She had no idea of the
>> necessity for community engagement before our conversation; she just
>> assumed that people would know who she was and flock to the servers.
>> What
>> she didn?t realize was that Sl and the Artworld are totally different
>> birds.
>>
>> Furherfield is in a much better position in that the ?new media? (sic)
>> community, as shown in my (hopefully) upcoming late review of ISEA that
>> the
>> Contemporary and the Tech Media artworlds are less divergent than
>> ever, probably (urrr???) thanks to the postinternets.  ISEA 2015 showed
>> that
>>  the art historical traditions are concurrent at this time, and piercing
>> the membrane might be relatively easy.
>>
>> Back to Rhizome.
>>
>>
>> I think that Rhizome?s path was a Faustian bargain.  Its decentering
>> from
>>  the community model, IMO, is coming to roost as the institutions are
>> giving it less resources (and isn?t it even outside of the NuMu now?),
>> and there isn?t a community except for the young blue-chips to rely on.
>> First, withFF?s punk roots, I doubt that many of the pitfalls that beset
>> R
>> will hit FF.  And there is a valid question - how does FF continue to
>> evolve without neglecting its core values? Good question.
>>
>> And I?ll be selfish in that although I am not terribly active, the list
>> is my main umbilical to the community at this time, and I want it to
>> stay a
>> list.  I?mnot against outreaches, don?t think that the list should just
>> be
>> a haven for hoary New Media artists, but on the other hand, I feel that
>> the list has a good community that is pretty healthy.  I also think
>> there
>>  are good models like Nettime that are excellent cases to defend the
>> form, and???
>>
>> For Powers? Sake, The Well???
>>
>>
>> There?s is a case for the power of Ur-Forums and their continued power.
>> My buds Lebkowsky and Sterling rock the cybersphere every year from a
>> anciently formatted mail thread there every year through The State of
>> the
>> World every year.
>>
>>
>> I think FF has a precious resource in its list, and I?m not in favor of
>> much more than incremental change.  The axiom of that which evolves dies
>> doesn?t necessarily fit here, as it?s a matter of community investiture
>> rather than logistics.  Looking at the list institutionally rather than
>> socially is a salient debate to have, and I don?t want to lose the sense
>> of community I have here.  This is one of the last informal venues I
>> have
>>  to just shoot the shit, as it were, and I think it?s one of the few
>>
>> where you can in this format.
>>
>> My .02 AED...
>>
>>
>> On 10/3/15, 9:01 AM, "Rob Myers" <rob at robmyers.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 02/10/15 04:03 AM, ruth catlow wrote:
>>
>> Furtherfield HQ (first think Google and then try to imagine the
>> opposite)
>>
>> An open-ended and non-enclosed structure with no basketball courts or
>> free candy vending machines?
>>
>> Two issues
>> 1) the cost and time associated with strategising, consulting,
>> designing, planning and remunerating all involved, for their efforts
>> while: future-proofing community infrastructure, caring for the
>> archive/database. We have had some really very good and generous
>> support from a number of people to help us understand what the process
>> might be, but the work still needs doing...and all risks mitigated!
>>
>> 2) connected to the above - maintaining the connections we all have,
>> while inviting in new and diverse (in age, background, device-loyalty,
>>  ethnicity) people.
>>
>> There are a few approaches, with different affordances and costs
>> (economic and political).
>>
>>
>> 1. Yay Walled Gardens!
>>
>>
>> Use Medium for publishing articles, hosted Discourse for mail/boards,
>> and Slack for co-ordination/chat.
>>
>> Cost: 100USD/month plus your soul.
>> Demographic: Current.
>>
>>
>> 2. All Zuck All The Time
>>
>>
>> Use Facebook Notes for publishing articles, Facebook pages for
>> discussion, and Facebook messaging for co-ordination/chat.
>>
>> Cost: Zero, plus the souls of all humanity.
>> Demographic: Previous.
>>
>>
>> 3. Current Free Software
>>
>>
>> Use Jekyll for publishing (mediated via GitLabs or at a pinch GitHub)
>> [TODO: comment system], self-hosted Discourse or Groupserver for
>> mail/boards, and an existing GNU social install or irc for co-ord/chat.
>>
>> Cost: As much as hosting costs.
>> Demographic: current.
>>
>>
>> 4. Hosted Free Software
>>
>>
>> Use Wordpress for publishing, see if lurk.org will host Netbehaviour on
>>  their Groupserver install, and use an existing GNU social install or
>> irc for co-ord/chat.
>>
>> Cost: As much as the services cost, look for donations.
>> Demographic: Almost current.
>>
>>
>>
>> For any self-hosted or donated services, stick them behind Cloudflare.
>> Good for DDOS and ssl, bad for centralization.
>>
>>
>> Choice of platform is to a degree choice of audience, cultural context
>> and politics. Not in a technologically deterministic sense but in the
>> sense that different book publishers or record labels are. Change the
>> system, exploit the system, or buck the system?
>>
>> - Rob.
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Co-founder Co-director
>> Furtherfield
>>
>> www.furtherfield.org
>>
>> +44 (0) 77370 02879
>> Meeting calendar - http://bit.ly/1NgeLce
>> Bitcoin Address 197BBaXa6M9PtHhhNTQkuHh1pVJA8RrJ2i
>>
>> Furtherfield is the UK's leading organisation for art shows, labs, &
>> debates
>> around critical questions in art and technology, since 1997
>>
>> Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee
>> registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205.
>> Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade,
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> 26 09 14h  vivre entre ? from estranger to e-stranger, une confe?rence
>> performe?e
>> festival Magdalena, La Bulle Bleue, 285 rue du Mas de Prunet, Montpellier
>>
>> aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/vivre-entre-from-estranger-to-e-stranger
>> /
>>
>> besides,
>> online performances On Object Agency
>> with Martina Ruhsam
>> archives (text, script, video, images)
>> bram.org/besides/
>>
>> Marc Garrett interviewed me for the Choose Your Muse series on
>> Furtherfield
>>
>> furtherfield.org/features/interviews/choose-your-muse-interview-annie-abrah
>> ams
>>
>>
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>>
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