[NetBehaviour] dismal news and from Mother Jones -

Alan Sondheim sondheim at panix.com
Sun Sep 6 23:16:09 CEST 2015


Hi Ana,

I think the idea of "learning from history" is a myth, not the way humans 
and other animals behave. What is to be learned, and what is history? 
What's learned is how to better carry out a war, how better to slaughter. 
And what one learns from history of course depends on what one sees, what 
one wants to learn - not to mention that one must be in a position to 
learn. ISIS, as you said I think, is formed from displaced people whose 
knowledge of history is religious; what they've learned is how to use the 
tools of modern technology to convey their message...

- Alan

On Sun, 6 Sep 2015, Ana Vald?s wrote:

> Alan i full agree with you. My point was it seems every generation promises "never more" when a catastrophe occurs. After the Holocaust with victims ranging from Jews to Gypsies to homosexuals to mental ill to Jehovah witness and many other the nations said "no more".
> The victorious Red Army raped German women in tens of thousands, Stalin moved Ucranians and Tchechen farmers to far parts of Russia and millions died of hunger.
> Years later we had the holocaust of Vienam and Cambodia with their killing fields and the orange agent and the napalm bombing.
> In the seventies we had our own Holocaust here, around 40000 dissapeared killed by horrendous ways, buried alive in concrete, drowned in Rio de la Plata, their babies stolen and given as gifts to children less military couples.
> We had one million killed in Rwanda with ppl in the rest of the world seeing as bystanders.
> We said never more atomic bombs after Hiroshima and Nagasaki and now every country want their own arsenal.
> We had the sieges of Sarajevo and the massacre of Sebrenica 5000 ppl killed in two days. We have Gaza now we have ISIS.
> Why are we not learning  from history we only repeat the horror with more sophisticated weapons.
> Ana
>
> Skickat fr?n min iPhone
>
>> 6 sep 2015 kl. 14:29 skrev Alan Sondheim <sondheim at panix.com>:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I agree with you of course! I also think that lessons learned aren't really applied - the US used Agent Orange, ISIS brings back mustard gas, Assad uses god knows what, and we discuss these things... I try to read ethology as much as possible, there are all sorts of lessons to be learned of course from animals, plants, but how can we apply them when 99 percent of the world believes that humans have some sort of God-given right to owning the planet?
>> 
>> - alan
>> 
>>> On Sun, 6 Sep 2015, ruth catlow wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Alan,
>>> I hear you.
>>> I agree with all you say.
>>> but I was not arguing against the usefulness, inspirational power or validity of science (I hope and think you know this)
>>> just that science (so far as I know) has not yet provided us with knowledge (that we can apply with any consistency) about how to stop (ourselves or others) behaving (individually or collectively) like arseholes, nor how to coordinate collectively for the highest interest of all living beings.
>>> 
>>> So the chart is more a celebration of the many (human and non-human) ways there are of knowing, rather than a bash at science (with the help of which we know A LOT!).
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 06/09/15 18:13, Alan Sondheim wrote:
>>>> it's also science that deals with the horror, albeit differently - the studies done of desertification for example in the mid-east.
>>>> science knows more than scientifically in the same way that art knows more than artistically, etc. - for me, the reason I'm interested in cosmology and particle physics, it gives me an idea where we've come from, what's out there, what we're made of, etc. and it extends my knowledge beyond what's given to us as human perception.
>>>> certainly it knows (not science, which knows nothing, but scientists) are motivated by the vastness of the world...
>>>> and science as much as any other field deals with what horrifies and debilitates, think of ebola for example...
>>>> Alan (who secretly likes situationism, but not its reification)
>>>>> On Sun, 6 Sep 2015, ruth catlow wrote:
>>>>> I won't pick an argument with you about Situationism: )
>>>>> but i must defend the symbolic precision of the pie chart!
>>>>> not because science isn't a good way of knowing things
>>>>> but because science only knows how to know things scientifically.
>>>>> and it cannot (because of its nature) know the vastness and multi-faceted worlds of reality to which it cannot even begin to apply its knowledge acquisition tools.
>>>>> For this reason I also think it is a particularly good joke!
>>>>> I paired it with the Situationism quote because it encourages an attitude of curiosity towards things that otherwise horrify and terrify... (and therefore debilitate)
>>>>>> On 06/09/15 15:36, Alan Sondheim wrote:
>>>>>> Yes, but I'd reverse the chart labels!
>>>>>> - Alan (always suspicious of situationism) (not looking for another argument) (just got up)
>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Sep 2015, ruth catlow wrote:
>>>>>>> Above: (left) /Scientific Diagramme/ (right) /Drawing of a quote from The Joy of Revolution by Ken Knabb//
>>>>>>> /
>>>>>>> Please accept my contribution to the conversation (above).
>>>>>>> Very appreciative of the efforts by all here to make sense and meaning. Thank you.
>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>> On 06/09/15 07:29, Antye Greie-Ripatti wrote:
>>>>>>>> thanks for sharing your thoughts? on all ends, i just want to say, it means something
>>>>>>>> in regards to syria, i read this this morning and it helped a bit to understand (cause also Putin is playing)
>>>>>>>> http://www.vox.com/2015/9/5/9265621/syrian-refugee-charts
>>>>>>>> like all conflicts these days they have so many layers and the complexity and depth,
>>>>>>>> like Ukraine for instance, which is ongoing and severe too
>>>>>>>> people also leaving the country constantly?
>>>>>>>> etc
>>>>>>>> blaming could be also called history writing/ rewriting understanding
>>>>>>>> and its is super important and all crisis are US crises too, cause they been playing hard!
>>>>>>>> but solutions --->
>>>>>>>>> The enormous profits which Halliburton and Cheney won should be taxed and paid to the refugees they created with the obscene Iraq war, a war based on lies and at flagrant crime against international law and common sense.
>>>>>>>> true!
>>>>>>>> keep spreading
>>>>>>>> i just re-read the entire "vietnam war' wikipedia entry yesterday cause suddenly i couldnt remember WHY there was a war
>>>>>>>> i wanted to explain my daughter
>>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>> insane
>>>>>>>> sorry, fragmented comments
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 5, 2015, at 12:59 AM, Ana Vald?s <agora158 at gmail.com <mailto:agora158 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Dear Alan you have been in the Middle East as I has been. Israel receives per year billions of American support both military and economic. Without the American support Israel could not manage the fences in the West Bank and in Gaza.
>>>>>>>>> They cost millions to keep. The new fence, separating the town of Bethlem in two, is cutting the Catholic monastery of Cremisan, which vineyards has been the only working place for hundreds of Palestinian families, in two. The Palestinian are not going any longer to access the vineyards.
>>>>>>>>> The US was the heir of the colonial European and was the kingmaker of the region for years. The Marines derrocated the Iranian first minister In 1954 because he wanted to nationalise the oil and manage the wells without the American oil companies. It's not me "blaming the US" without historical facts. The same facts Eisenhower stated when he said "we are the hostages of the military industrial establishment".
>>>>>>>>> My point is: who toppled Saddam and Ghadaffi and who has been supporting Assad all these years? The US economical and geopolitical strategies has created the refugees which are fleeing today the region and they are seen by politicians, weapon dealers, war mongers and bankers as "collateral damage".
>>>>>>>>> That's my point why we are not seen in these days the same rallies to support the refugees we are seen in Europe?
>>>>>>>>> You say "US is giving more than many other countries". But that's the most bizarre paradox: The US is taking with a hand and giving with the other hand.
>>>>>>>>> The enormous profits which Halliburton and Cheney won should be taxed and paid to the refugees they created with the obscene Iraq war, a war based on lies and at flagrant crime against international law and common sense.
>>>>>>>>> Ana
>>>>>>>>> Skickat fr?n min iPhone
>>>>>>>>>> 4 sep 2015 kl. 18:17 skrev Alan Sondheim <sondheim at panix.com <mailto:sondheim at panix.com>>:
>>>>>>>>>> But the refugees ARE a European problem, and France was in the mid-east as well, England had its empire, Belgium its Leopold. You keep going after blame after blame after blame. Why not ask why the US is doing little? Apparently it's giving a lot more aid than other countries (think that was in the Guardian, I might be able to track the source down) combined. And Europe would not be taking refugees in, were they not coming across "its" borders. That's not the case here; what is the case is the horrific xenophobia which is placing the U.S. under lockdown. I see lots of calls for humanitarian support and aid, very little for bringing refugees over - I'm also not sure how that would be done, where they would come from - and this in the case of brutal opposition to the 11 million (apparently) undocumented workers/migrants here from central and south America - which is obviously far more than the total migrants to date in Europe. I'd like to see ALL refugees everywhere 
 legalized; I can't do anything re: Europe, but we voice our opposition here to the Republican party and its proto- fascistic take on the world. That's pretty much all I can say about it.
>>>>>>>>>> - Alan
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, Ana Vald?s wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> We see in the whole European world ppl gathering in supporting the refugees
>>>>>>>>>>> biking to Calais from London with tents food and medicines in Stockholm
>>>>>>>>>>> where I lived for almost my whole adult life thousands of families are
>>>>>>>>>>> offering to open their houses to refugees.
>>>>>>>>>>> And I am talking about a country with a xenophobe party with almost one
>>>>>>>>>>> million voters.
>>>>>>>>>>> Alan and the Americans in this list what are the US doing? I don't mean the
>>>>>>>>>>> government but the ppl where are the rallies to help the refugees from the
>>>>>>>>>>> Middle East, a region in turmoil since the wars started by the US and their
>>>>>>>>>>> geopolitical strategies?
>>>>>>>>>>> The refugees can't be an European problem.
>>>>>>>>>>> Ana
>>>>>>>>>>> El sep 4, 2015 2:39 PM, "Alan Sondheim" <sondheim at panix.com <mailto:sondheim at panix.com>> escribi?:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    Germany is set to take in 800,000 refugees by the end of the
>>>>>>>>>>>    year.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    America, a country that won two World Wars, went to the moon,
>>>>>>>>>>>    and did "the other things," has taken in, well, far fewer.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    Quoth the Guardian:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>        The US has admitted approximately 1,500 Syrian refugees
>>>>>>>>>>>    since the beginning of the civil war there in 2011, mostly
>>>>>>>>>>>    within the last fiscal year. Since April, the number of admitted
>>>>>>>>>>>    refugees has more than doubled from an estimate of 700.
>>>>>>>>>>>        ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>        Anna Greene, IRCs director of policy & advocacy for US
>>>>>>>>>>>    programs, said the 1,500 people the US has admitted thus far
>>>>>>>>>>>    doesnt even begin to scratch the surface of what is needed and
>>>>>>>>>>>    what could really make a difference.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    Oxfam wants the US to up that number to 70,000 by the end of
>>>>>>>>>>>    2016.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    Correction: This post and its headline originally said that
>>>>>>>>>>>    Germany planned to take in 800,000 Syrian refugees by the end of
>>>>>>>>>>>    the year. That is incorrect. It is 800,000 refugees total.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    - Alan
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    ==
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