[NetBehaviour] question/s for the list

Helen Varley Jamieson helen at creative-catalyst.com
Thu Mar 14 13:09:34 CET 2019

my 2 cents, speaking as a new zealander with a british passport living
in germany - i completely agree with edward that the greatest tragedy of
brexit is that is is stealing precious time, energy & money from the
environmental and social issues that really matter. it's obscene and
completely irresponsible. britain's supposed leaders have handled the
whole fiasco appallingly badly - from calling the referendum in the
first place, then taking the very close result of a non-binding
referendum as if it was an absolute decree handed down from god, and on
it goes lurching from idiocy to madness. the government clearly does not
have the interests of the citizens or the country at heart. if i was the
queen i would have sacked the lot of them long ago!

but unfortunately i'm not the queen, i'm just one of the 1.2 million
british citizens living in europe who weren't allowed to vote in the
referendum despite it having massive implications for us. certainly, the
european union is far from perfect, & sometimes systems do have to be
completely broken in order to be rebuilt. but brexit seems to be just
about the worst possible way to do it.

alan, you might find the guardian a better source of news than the bbc.

h : )

On 13.03.19 04:58, Alan Sondheim via NetBehaviour wrote:
> I really appreciate these replies; I've been reading and watching far
> too much rhetoric. The BBC, for us, is nothing like Fox news; at least
> in their reportage on U.S. affair, BBC Int'l is the best televised
> source we have. And I do a lot of news watching. The replies you sent
> explain a lot; the surface - what we're seeing here in Parliament
> (where there are long broadcasts on BBC) is constant innuendo and
> repetition, almost magical repetition, as if doing so would make it
> so; the interviews are often with splinter groups which just confuse
> the thing. The dates confuse the thing. I love Britain, not saying
> this lightly, and one of the odd things for me (and Azure) is the
> intelligence of all the noise - it's so much more intelligent than the
> noise here in the U.S. which so often amounts to hatred,
> anti-intellectualism, religion, and bullying. And this isn't just
> minority behavior - it's increasingly dominating. As a Jew, I can say
> we're dragged into it with the Jewish/Israel craziness - over and over
> again the news has to insist that all Jews don't support Israel - but
> the repetition serves otherwise. It's a real problem for the Democrats
> at this point... (For myself, the last time I was in Israel was a half
> century ago and I was horrified at that point w/ what was going on, on
> all sides, and swore never to return; if anything, I sided with the
> Arab population.) It's a frightening time... Apologies for going on so
> long and it's late here; we have a guest and have been working on
> writing tonight.
> Thank you!, Alan
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 2:37 PM Edward Picot via NetBehaviour
> <netbehaviour at lists.netbehaviour.org
> <mailto:netbehaviour at lists.netbehaviour.org>> wrote:
>     Both parties are paralysed by the fact that amongst their
>     grassroots membership are big numbers who voted "leave", for
>     whatever reasons, and who would be infuriated and feel betrayed if
>     there was another referendum: they'd see it as the metropolitan
>     intelligentsia and the upper middle classes refusing to accept the
>     outcome of the first referendum, because it didn't go the way they
>     wanted. The equivalent, in other words, of dissolving the people
>     and electing another.
>     Of course it's not that simple. The "leave" campaign was a tissue
>     of atrocious lies and covert appeals to things like patriotism and
>     racism. It was the old outvoting the young, and the have-nots
>     outvoting the haves. It was about fear of outsiders, but it also
>     expressed a revulsion against established politics and big
>     faceless organisations of any description. It gave people a chance
>     to kick out, and they took it. It sold them an illusion of taking
>     "back" control of their own lives and destinies, as if they'd ever
>     really had that control in the first place.
>     At the moment I'm not at all sure whether we're going to end up
>     with another referendum or a no-deal scenario. There's a small but
>     powerful group of hard-liners, especially right-wing hard-liners
>     in the Tory party, who regard "crashing out" as the best possible
>     outcome, and who are trying to scupper everything else so that the
>     no-deal scenario comes into being by default. It's a bit scary.
>     I'm no fan of Europe - I agree with what Julian says about the
>     European Commission. But the big questions with which we should be
>     grappling are about the environment, and from that point of view I
>     think we need a united Europe rather than a divided one. The worst
>     thing about this whole Brexit mess is that it's distracting us
>     from the things we really ought to be focussed on, and at the same
>     time it's demonstrating more and more clearly how horribly
>     inadequate the Parliamentary system is, as a means of dealing with
>     anything that requires a bit of applied intelligence.
>     Edward
>     On 12/03/2019 17:49, Julian Brooks wrote:
>>     One take, amongst many no doubt:
>>     It's a bloody disaster (basically) - economically, culturally,
>>     psychologically. Any-ology.
>>     While there's a very strong argument that the European Commission
>>     is not much more than the lapdog of hypercapital, the European
>>     Union is a wonderful thing and I am still in shock that we appear
>>     to be leaving (& maybe even taking this grand experiment down
>>     with us).
>>     Nonetheless there's some heavy politics plating itself out today,
>>     and the opposition (Labour really) were last week very clear to
>>     let the Tories destroy themselves, distraction free.
>>     There's been growing momentum for a final Peoples Vote on either
>>     May's deal or Remain - this scenario looks likelier by the
>>     moment. I would also still presume that if an election is called,
>>     both Labour and Conservative will still call for Brexit.
>>     This whole shitshow is a way off being resolved IMO - and tbh I
>>     don't think we can ever go back. Equally, many of our Euro
>>     partners are very understandably heartily sick of us as a nation.
>>     And who can blame them, I feel the same.
>>     My €2 anyhow...
>>     Julian
>>     P.S. The BBC is sadly not a news org anymore, they only deal in
>>     propaganda (think Fox w. Manners:)
>>     -------- Original Message --------
>>     On 12 Mar 2019 17:22, Alan Sondheim < sondheim at panix.com
>>     <mailto:sondheim at panix.com>> wrote:
>>         I've been watching Brexit debates in Parliament on and off
>>         for months and
>>         months and have some questions here -
>>         The main being why another referendum isn't being called.
>>         Parliament's in
>>         a mess; Brexit's already losing money and will lose research
>>         and cultural
>>         possibilities as well. It also seems that the public didn't
>>         really
>>         understand the issues at the time of the referendum - and
>>         that most people
>>         don't understand them now.
>>         How does this work with DIWO?
>>         These questions might seem naive, but I'd like to hear what
>>         the arts etc.
>>         communities - what any communities - are thinking about this.
>>         How does
>>         this effect small towns? Women? Cultural exchanges? Are
>>         artists involved
>>         in protesting one way or another? It seems from the outside
>>         that a second
>>         referendum is in order - is there any call for this from cultural
>>         institutions? Apologies for naivete here; most of the
>>         information we get
>>         from BBC is from parliamentary debates or talking heads on CNN...
>>         Thanks, Alan
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helen varley jamieson

helen at creative-catalyst.com <mailto:helen at creative-catalyst.com>

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