[NetBehaviour] question about a novel and "chiastic structure"

[Alan Sondheim]

If you can make it at all through that dense text I put up today, it's 
about recursion and the Ackermann function and my use of it figures 
directly. I have a great book here on recursive functions which I've used 
on and off to the extent I understand it (a LOT is over my head). Best, 
Alan

On Thu, 29 Oct 2020, Max Herman via NetBehaviour wrote:

> 
> This is great info Alan and Edward, thank you!
> 
> I wonder if Greer's use of it in a novel is unique in some way, to warrant
> the prize.  I've found some articles about Nabokov and Joyce using it. 
> Mainly wondering if it could be a compositional element in Leonardo's works,
> and if yes what that would suggest.  Leonardo as labyrinthist?
> 
> GEB has a chapter about recursion (it follows the one on consistency) which
> I think might relate, so I will try to sift through that.  It mentions the
> concepts of "push," "pop," and "stack" as used in an early AI language "IPL"
> so maybe those relate to the layers of the onion?  I wonder if Dante used it
> too; if so that would have been an influence on Leonardo for sure.  It does
> seem like the Hollywood style of plot takes a different approach.  I wonder
> if chiastic structure is more associated with antiquity?  Perhaps it has an
> inclination toward "contemplative aesthetics" like mandala and labyrinth as
> opposed to -- not sure what, uncontemplative?  
> 
> Definitely curious to hear if anyone has read Less.  It seems to quote
> Calvino a lot and the author lives in Tuscany as well as San Francisco, but
> every reference is buried and hidden in an enormous jumble.  Basically it
> seems like a solid book of chiasmus in the form of a world tour of literally
> everything.  The work seems very ambitious in scope, to the extent that I
> wouldn't be too surprised to see a "new chiasticism" or something emerge, if
> such things still emerge.
> 
> The good part is that it's a comedy, about life going on, which is why it
> was chosen for my book club I think!  ?  
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> From: NetBehaviour <netbehaviour-bounces at lists.netbehaviour.org> on behalf
> of Alan Sondheim via NetBehaviour <netbehaviour at lists.netbehaviour.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2020 4:00 PM
> To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
> <netbehaviour at lists.netbehaviour.org>
> Cc: Alan Sondheim <sondheim at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] question about a novel and "chiastic structure"
>  
> Look at Hua-Yen Buddhsim, Flower Ornament Sutra, Angkor Wat, Borobudur, etc.
> It's everywhere.
> Same with Cathedral mazes etc.
> 
> Best, Alan -
> 
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 2:55 PM Edward Picot via NetBehaviour
> <netbehaviour at lists.netbehaviour.org> wrote:
>       Max,
> 
> I'm a big fan of chaistic structure - or the 'onion structure', which
> is another term for the same thing. You work your way inwards through
> various layers of narrative to reach the central point, then you work
> your way outwards through the same layers again, ideally in reverse
> order, to complete the story. There are examples of this kind of
> structure in fairy stories - a princess who is exiled does kind deeds
> to a bird, a toad and a fox, and then has to overcome a series of
> apparently-impossible challenges in which she is helped by the fox,
> the toad and the bird in repayment for her kindness. It's a very
> useful alternative to the prevailing 'three act' structure of (for
> example) most Hollywood movies, where everything is geared towards a
> massive cliffhanger/climax/confrontation/resolution at the end. The
> onion structure, by contrast, is more balanced, less end-heavy, and
> the turning-point/crux of the story tends to be the bit in the middle,
> the heart of the narrative, after which good luck turns to bad, the
> protagonist starts to reap the rewards of her good deeds, etc.
> 
> I suppose things like mandalas (and possibly mazes) might be examples
> of this kind of structure in the visual arts.
> 
> Edward
> 
> On 29/10/2020 18:00, Max Herman via NetBehaviour wrote:
>       Hi all,
> 
> My book club just read Andrew Sean Greer's novel Less, which won
> the Pulitzer Prize for fiction in 2018.  It seems to use a lot
> of "chiastic structure," which is an A-B-B'-A' pattern used in
> ancient literature.  There are also some biological meanings of
> the term (for vision and genetics).
> 
> I'd be curious to know if anyone is aware of chiastic structure
> in visual arts or perhaps computer systems.  
> 
> Interesting idea Ricardo about the Rethinking Humanity idea! 
> Will be interested to hear/see more.
> 
> All best,
> 
> Max
> 
> 
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