Hi all,

I've become interested recently in learning about Integral Theory as it relates to music and network theory.  

After a quick read of the Integral Theory entry in Wikipedia, I would guess that some find it good and others not so good.  Sounds like a reasonable place to be these days!  Unorthodox approaches to academic subjects would seem overall to offer some advantages where academia works poorly, and some disadvantages where academia works well.  There seem to be a wide variety of ideas about integral theory.  

In one school of integral theory AQAL is an acronym for "all quadrants, all levels," which means taking a holistic view of lots of states and stages of the basic model, the main thesis of which is that phenomena are generally both whole in themselves and parts of a larger system (hence integral).  This seems like it could relate on a practical level to some aspects of network theory, while perhaps risking a tendency toward murky or haphazard conclusions. 

In any case, I noticed the following quote that might relate somewhat to artifice and artificing intelligence:  "The AQAL system has been critiqued for not taking into account the lack of change in the biological structure of the brain at the human level (complex neocortex), this role being taken instead by human-made artifacts.[63]"  

This criticism might be replied to by recent evidence that the brain does change quite a bit depending on life-behavior (or what might be called "net" behavior), which brain imaging is starting to be able to prove, not necessarily in raw brain anatomy but definitely in configuration, emphasis, robustness, and connection states, or what you might call the brain's internal network behavior.  As to the "role" being taken by human-made artifacts, I guess I'd say that there is always some balance between the player and the instrument.  Is the best instrument an instrument that plays itself, and always perfectly?  Not necessarily.  Is the best player that which uses no instrument?  Well, even the vocal cords and eardrums of the audience are instruments.  Is it best to have only one player, one audience, or one instrument?  Likely not.  It seems that ideas of "best," "only," and "perfect" aren't very helpful, so how then might we calibrate our choices about good and less good, more or less worthwhile?  Maybe an idea of applying holistic "system well-being" as a baseline concept, along with "individual well-being" and freedom of choice, acknowledging the mutual interdependencies of the two, could help, but maybe not.  

I certainly hope I haven't offended anyone by mentioning Integral Theory in this context while having so little direct knowledge of it.  Any errors I've made are entirely my own fault, and whatever useful connections might result I owe mainly to wikipedia.  As to music, I enjoy playing from time to time but do so at a rudimentary level of skill and application.  Even so, I do feel that I have experienced a different and in some ways greater level of enjoyment and appreciation of music when playing it, especially with other players but also in solitude.  My most favorite listening experiences have been a mix of forms and genres, some being highly complex and precise forms like Bach (more enduring) and others very simple easy to play forms like Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band (more fleeting).  🙂

All best and happy listening,

Max

PS -- last week I learned of a study at Cambridge U. that showed mice could retain highly difficult, complex motor skills only if there was a significant yet manageable element of stress and effort associated with the learning process.  The presence of cortisol, a stress hormone, allowed "spikes" to form on neuronal structures which then developed into the durable connective structure supporting the skill.  If the mice were provided with a cortisol blocker, the spikes would form during learning but would disappear afterward.  Also very interestingly, the presence of cortisol needed to be cyclical, not chronic, ebbing and flowing with the effort of learning.  If the cortisol levels were kept at a constant elevated level, inducing chronic stress, the spikes would not appear at all.  I might have the no-cortisol/chronic-cortisol effects mixed up; I learned this from a conversation and not from an article I can quickly check back on.  This is the type of article though, which might provide clues: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5762136/




From: NetBehaviour <netbehaviour-bounces@lists.netbehaviour.org> on behalf of Alan Sondheim <sondheim@panix.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 9:16 AM
To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity <netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org>
Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] Links
 

agree completely with you here; the issue is dismissals on all sides,
which does affect the ability of musicians to earn a decent wage, for
example - that's what our four-day-improvisation at Eyebeam in 2012 (I
think) was about in part -

but then one could say, it's the audience that decides where the money
goes of course, so if for example robotic music/voice is preferred, then
why not?

but the one might analyze the culture and what occurs within the culture
when for example K-Pop dominates, and what happens to those singers and
musicians themselves? (three have committed suicide recently, one popular
group is on hiatus etc.).

ah, there's darkness and a little light everywhere -

On Thu, 5 Dec 2019, Michael Szpakowski wrote:

> Hi all <But it's all only
> music, sound, yes?> I think it?s much more and that is what surfaces time and
> again in the discussion : music is a human social practice ( like language ,
> like all art) - it?s something human beings *do* ( and talk about, then do
> some more) .And this doing involves, whatever the technology, the fact of
> our embodiment. This doing is tied up with but not exactly reducible to some
> kind of communicative impulse - one that refers to ideas, but more
> importantly to affect... It also refers to itself - to previous practices
> and how they were carried out, to assessments of them &c That richness is
> why I cavill at wholesale dismissals ( or indeed endorsements) ?Truth is
> always concrete? as good old Vladimir Ilyich said...
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
> On Thursday, December 5, 2019, 2:11 am, Alan Sondheim <sondheim@panix.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>       Beautiful -
>       Then again, in the discussion, for me it's got to do with
>       steering
>       mechanisms and a kind of Wired magazine collocation of
>       technological
>       epiphanies. There's more than that, there's room for everything;
>       it's when
>       one or another form dominates, the problems start up. But it's
>       all only
>       music, sound, yes?
>
>       On Thu, 5 Dec 2019, Simon Mclennan via NetBehaviour wrote:
>
>       > Indeed Michael all things are a product of this world. And as
>       such are
>       > inevitable. Hierarchies therein generate processes and
>       inevitable outcomes.
>       > So yes, there?s great swathes of stuff to sort through. Made
>       via machines.
>       > I find that type of ultra commercial music dull to listen to -
>       people can do
>       > cultural studies sure, of these forms. Look good in the old
>       ica bookshop.
>       > But there is so much good music and art.
>       > I guess if one can shine a light on political or philosophical
>       or moral
>       > questions, relevances then good on you.
>       > I prefer to actually make music and art. Not talk about bad
>       pop Muzak
>       > myself.
>       > Ha ha guess I always put my foot in it.
>       > The carbuncle of the chattering classes.
>       > What?s different about Grimes then? AI in music is it changing
>       people?- of
>       > course it reflects back into people?s values etc.
>       > Corporate pop has been around a few decades no?
>       > Techno and beats. Beats forever.
>       > Forever beatific eh Alan.
>       > Alan on the path looked up at me
>       > Me on the fence
>       > Singing him a song
>       > Alan agreed with me
>       > About animal exploitation
>       > In the Prometheus show
>       > In the toilet on the park
>       > In London
>       > We were together
>       > With the bacteria teeth
>       > And the little statuettes
>       > Of bodies clinging
>       > I singed at Alan
>       > Then we talked a bit
>       > He went to America again
>       > I never saw him since
>       > But seen his jangling and fast runs on the saz
>       > And we discussed improv
>       > He done it twenty years longer than me
>       > Cos he is about 18 years my senior
>       > And writes a lot
>       > Creative and disjointed
>       > Knows my landlord Aharon
>       > Who skates and records the rumble
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       > Sent from my spyphone
>       >
>       > On 4 Dec 2019, at 23:48, Michael Szpakowski
>       <m@michaelszpakowski.org> wrote:
>       >
>       > Maybe the question for music as it is for the network and lots
>       > else should be ?what wealth of human practices would a
>       decently
>       > ordered and resourced world for everyone allow?? Often we seem
>       to
>       > critique the products of a distorted world rather than the
>       > distortion itself, carts before horses...
>       >
>       >
>       > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>       >
>       > On Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 11:42 pm, Michael Szpakowski
>       > <m@michaelszpakowski.org> wrote:
>       >
>       > Ah ha! Misled by my relative ignorance of the
>       > specifics and the later reference to rap.. but...
>       > still my point stands... we lose something if we
>       > abandon wholesale physically actuated sound and the
>       > fragility of the live but wholesale dismissal of new
>       > musical practices is foolish, blunts our lives and
>       > experiences... fiercely critical openness seems to
>       > me the order of the day :)
>       >
>       >
>       > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>       >
>       > On Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 9:45 pm, Rob Myers
>       > <rob@robmyers.org> wrote:
>       >
>       > Grimes -
>       >
>       > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Anthropocene
>       >
>       > I?m a big fan of all three but for very different reasons.
>       >
>       > - Rob.
>       >
>       > On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 1:13 PM, Michael Szpakowski
>       > <m@michaelszpakowski.org> wrote:
>       > Do you mean Grime Simon? I?m unclear. I think
>       > there is a big difference between a healthy
>       > scepticism and nuanced discussion about how
>       > tech can on occasion be ill used and the
>       > dismissal of whole swathes of work...
>       >
>       >
>       > Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>       >
>       > On Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 6:36 pm, Simon
>       > Mclennan via NetBehaviour
>       > <netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org> wrote:
>       >
>       > Have to weigh in in this! Grimes.
>       > Sorry. Yes ? Grimes. Utterly
>       > soulless product without anything
>       > of cultural value to me, musical
>       > or otherwise. This discussion
>       > between these three entities makes
>       > me yawn. It?s all about money -
>       > absolutely nothing else - it?s the
>       > equivalent of Smash powdered
>       > potatoes - worse than that.
>       > These people are completely without musical
>       > talent - the so-name AI is less than the dirt
>       > under the nails of the Ed Blackwell.
>       > Technology is only about generating revenue.
>       > It does not help musicians - rap is a
>       > festering sore on the ass of the bourgeoisie.
>       > An undeniable itch - when scratched and
>       > cauterised momentarily it oozes some wealth
>       > for a tiny few participants.
>       > Sorry I rarely contribute to this list - and I
>       > dig you cats for keeping the stuff rumbling
>       > along the conveyor / keep it up and ? where?s my
>       > Jazzmaster and homemade inks....
>       >
>       > Sent from my spyphone
>       >
>       > On 28 Nov 2019, at 18:11, Alan Sondheim via
>       > NetBehaviour
>       > <netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org> wrote:
>       >
>       > It's definitely a discussion we
>       > need to have. It reminds me of a
>       > dinner I had years ago w/ Cage who
>       > confirmed he criticized jazz
>       > because the player worked with
>       > fixed rhythms. Something gets lost
>       > in these discussions; Adorno fails
>       > miserably.
>       > Ah well... It relates to my writing
>       > about 'somatic ghosting' I think. And I
>       > always feel I have to justify myself
>       > (although the audience doesn't feel it)
>       > when I show up playing an acoustic
>       > guitar for example. -- Alan
>       >
>       > On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 1:06 PM Rob
>       > Myers <rob@robmyers.org> wrote:
>       > On 2019-11-27 7:40 p.m.,
>       > Alan Sondheim wrote:
>       > >> This sounds so
>       > white/privileged to me, the
>       > position
>       > > of the listener paramount
>       > for example, the relegation
>       > of community to
>       > > reproduction, etc. It's a
>       > form of hip effacement. I
>       > realize I haven't
>       > > read everything HH's has
>       > written, but there's a
>       > fundamental difference
>       > > between a drum machine and
>       > a "great drummer" who came
>       > from community,
>       > > breathes within community,
>       > and contributes to
>       > community. Thinking for
>       > > example of free jazz, and
>       > the difficulties and
>       > explorations of the great
>       > > players, the relation of
>       > that music to the cry, the
>       > field holler, the
>       > > blues, gospel musics, etc.
>       >
>       > I think HH would agree with
>       > you.
>       >
>       > > and I keep returning to
>       > white white white white
>       > white and privilege.
>       > There is something
>       > class-bound about Grimes
>       > (currently dating a
>       > billionaire) and HH (whose
>       > last album was their PhD
>       > thesis) arguing
>       > about who the future will be
>       > worse for. But I suspect
>       > that our own
>       > reactions can be similarly
>       > reduced to our respective
>       > identities.
>       >
>       > There's obviously a bigger
>       > historical discussion about
>       > race, technology,
>       > intellectual property and
>       > music that AI and "AI" are
>       > just the latest
>       > phase of. Drum machines
>       > being prominent in rap and
>       > techno and disdain
>       > for them as tools may be
>       > related, for example. Given
>       > this, I'm genuinely
>       > surprised that AI has been
>       > instantly mainstreamed in
>       > music in the way
>       > that it seems to have. More
>       > like the Fairlight than the
>       > 808...
>       >
>       > - Rob.
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       > --
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